The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening DX Forum  /  Seashell Duping in 100%: Allow it or No? (Locked)
  ZorlaxSevenZorlaxSeven

So there's been a lot of talk of using Bomb Triggers to duplicate seashells in the Seashell House. It seems now that we need to have a formal discussion about this and decide appropriately.

Video of glitch can be found here:

I am very much against the use of this glitch in 100% (big surprise). While using the bomb trigger is not against the rules in any way, I believe that duping the seashells is. There are a few rules in 100% that are, more or less, unspoken at this point. Mainly that you can not glitch to get your tunic and that you cannot duplicate Heart Pieces. I feel that duplicating seashells is akin to duplicating Heart Pieces. If you can duplicate one, why not the other? If we are worried simply about completing our inventory (getting the L2 sword in this case), why is there no restriction on how we complete our hearts?

To those who say we should be able to duplicate heart pieces, I must respond that we are losing the very essence of 100%. If anyone has the post that ZFG made regarding Ocarina of Time 100% (about how, if there was a glitch in SM64 that allowed you to get the same star over and over to get 120 stars) I would love to have it for this discussion. We must remember that 100% is a completely arbitrary category. Its sole existence is so we can show off more of the game while doing a speedrun. We decide what is and is not okay. If we allow something like duplicating Heart Pieces or Seashells, we lose a major portion of the game, and instead replace it with something rather boring and tedious. We lose the very essence of 100%.

The precedent with 100% has been always to "keep the essence of the category," which is why we do not glitch to get our tunic. Otherwise we would be missing out on a major portion of the game. It is the same reason why we do not do Heart Piece duping. [It is also the same reason why we do not use wrong warping and out of bounds, arguably, to complete this category.]

Lastly, here are the rules, as they stand on ZSR, which has been the ruleset we (I) have been following since about 2013

*"Beat the game with the 'No Wrong Warp' and 'No Out of Bounds' rulesets in effect.

100% requires getting all instruments, heart pieces, photographs, every item including the coloured tunic (either; runners choice) from the colour dungeon, including the boomerang which you get by completing the trading quest, and the three item capacity upgrades for bombs, arrows, and magic powder. You must also get the Level 2 sword (Sea Shell Sword) by collecting 20 of the Secret Shells. Although there are 26 sea shells in the game, only 20 are required to get the sword, so only 20 are required for 100%."" *

While there is very little language about seashells, I believe that the phrase "collecting 20 OF THE Secret Seashells," to me, implies "20 of the 26 Secret Seashells". If the phrasing had neglected any mention of the seashells at all, we might have a case (based on the rules) to not get them. If the phrasing had been "collect 20 seashells" then that would imply ANY 20. However, I think there was an implicit grouping that collecting 20 individual, different seashells is what is intended for this category.

Summary of points (For NOT allowing Seashell Duplication):
-We do not allow duplication of Heart Pieces, so we should not allow duplication of Seashells
-We would lose a major part of the category, which is one of the main points of 100% (to showcase as much of the game as possible)
---Precedent says to keep as much of the the essence of the category as possible (no glitch tunic, no HP duping)
-(I believe) the rules had an implicit statement to collect 20 individual, different shells
(- Seashell duplication is REALLY boring).

I would also like to say that I am against revisions of old rulesets / runs. (IE: Retroactively banning / adding something. Meaning we can make a rule like "collect all 26 individual seashells," since older 100% runs did not do this)

Discuss.

(PS: Don't take this the wrong way, but I thought this might be relevant and a little funny 😛 )
http://imgur.com/uqoO87D

zekekezekeke likes this. 
  oSeabassoSeabass

I'm with Z on this one. I think hundo is about showing off the fun stuff we never do in ANYPERCENTNOSAVEANDQUITNOWRONGWARPNOOUTOFBOUNDS. Heart piece dupe and shell dupe seems lame in hundo where the goal is to show more exploration of the game. Part of that exploration is finding 20 shells for sword. Another thing is WHICH 20 shells gives flexibility to new routes to be discovered and thought up. If duping was allowed that is no longer the case.

I haven't run hundo in a year or so so take my comments as you will. I vote no for shell/heart duping in hundo. Bass out

 
  SickynarSickynar

I'll have to agree with both Seabass and Zorlax, for much the same reasons.

 
  GreenTunicGreenTunic

I may have found this glitch but I'm not sure if it should be implemented into the category. My reasons are my own on the matter however and whilst I don't support the whole "It needs to be entertaining and that's all that matters" spiel, I do kind of think that collecting each specific heart container/piece and seashell is important to truly 100% it. Still undecided though.

That's not to say I won't maybe do seashell duping within some other arbitrary run outside of these leaderboards for fun though 😛

VelatogetVelatoget and Warr90Warr90 like this. 
  DelnDeln

bomb trigger is used to dupe

if we ban duping, were pretty much banning doing bomb trigger.

this is going to be interesting

 
  ZorlaxSevenZorlaxSeven

I mean, it's high time that somebody routed Glitched 100% (not me) 😛

No one is banning bomb trigger. You can duplicate the seashells all you want with the bomb trigger, you just can't collect any of them 😛

VelatogetVelatoget likes this. 
  DelnDeln

glitched 100% is a mess, if it wasnt for all those triggers in DH it would be viable...

 
  ZorlaxSevenZorlaxSeven

I've never had any trigger issues when working in the doghouse for bingo. The only issues I've had were the lack of knowledge to start certain triggers (not inadvertently starting them), like "when does the Ballad of the Windfish become available?" types of triggers.

That being said, I am not AT ALL knowledgeable about doghouse.

 
  LeonPLeonP

Agree w/ all the above dudes for same reasons

 
  DelnDeln

@zorlax mab and i tested many chests and most of them would trigger the ghost as completed but without actually giving you the picture so you would just end up being stuck missing 1 of them.

its a lost cause.

 
  SurrealGuySurrealGuy

Of course you can say, that we should allow it just because it is just another use of the bomb trigger.
But I feel that it is something different this time.
So I also agree with Zorlax and the other buds for the same reasons. I think of 100% as a "collection"% run. Duping just seems very wrong in this, because you just collect the same seashell over and over again. You also have to ask yourself the question "Will 100% still be fun if we allow this?".

Contents

[Hide]  

MakeHundoGreatAgain Kappa

 
  ChotoTheBrightChotoTheBright

I mostly agree with all of the above statements, and I am just playing devil's advocate and presenting some alternative arguments here, but isn't the fundamental purpose of speedrunning to go fast? If we have discovered a new trick that is faster and (one could argue) that it doesn't violate the established ruleset because of some ambiguity regarding seashell collection, should it not be implemented? What is boring is all down to opinion. I have heard people say Legacy is boring but I loved it. Collection is another. Once an item is in the inventory is it not collected, regardless of how it ended up in front of you? (Not counting cheat codes and the like)

I suppose at the end of the day, more than anything, this is all for ourselves. Casual gamers or speedrunners of other series don't really care what goes on with LADX , you know? None of us like retroactive rule revisions, but I think its a good idea to officially add unspoken rules to our official ruleset. Just as a way to cover our own asses. Make sure we are all on the same page, and to help new runners joining our community understand right away what is allowed and what is not.

My personal feeling does jive with most every one else's opinion, and I do feel that going through the map and ¤finding and collecting¤ the shells feels a little more pure. But i have also been vocal about a separate, highly glitched 100% category, one that would include a trick such as this. Something akin to Any% ACE. It doesn't have to be official, per se, but if there is enough interest and enough runners are doing it, it wouldn't hurt to have it as an unofficial category along side any% ACE. =)

Thats all I have, really. \m/

Warr90Warr90 likes this. 
  GreenTunicGreenTunic

I agree with most of what you are saying Choto in that it IS about going fast lol it's not about the freaking entertainment and showcasing. Do casual runs if you want to show off the game and let the speedrunners plow right through it as fast as possible.

That being said each individual seashell should be collected rather than duplicated but not 20 like the rules state. It should be all 26 seashells and then getting the sword. If the purpose is the seashells and not the Lvl 2 sword then collecting only 20 is completely defeating the purpose. So I put it out there that all 26 need to be collected for this to actually be 100%.

 
  SickynarSickynar

I see what you mean GT, and now that I consider ¤why¤ we're mostly averse to duping, I can't help but agree that 26 seashells would have to be considered a part of the completion.

 
  Warr90Warr90

I still think Maps, Beaks and Compasses should be in 100% personally 😛 but with regards to the Seashell Dupe I like it but really does take away from gathering the items for the Sword if you can't Dupe Hearts and other items then for me it's a no go.

Like Choto said a Misc heavy glitched 100% would be to watch 🙂

 
  CransoonCransoon

After the initial Skype conversion, I'm surprised to find myself in the minority here, but I see absolutely no reason why we shouldn't allow seashell duping in 100%. To not allow it feels like it would be a very arbitrary extension of the category, where we're not banning the use of a glitch entirely (no WW, OOB, etc), but instead banning the use of an allowed glitch in an individual situation, with no solid argument behind it. I disagree with Blaino Skip being banned, but at least there's the argument there that it conflicts with the "no OOB" requirement. There's no such argument here.

Before I go into my reasons, I'll first off say that my definition of the category isn't the same one Zorlax posted, partially because I haven't been able to get ZSR to open in months without a DNS error. I STILL can't actually get there to see the definition Zorlax is talking about. The one I've been going off was one set up by Giuocob when he initially routed out the 100% category in 2012.

3rd post down
https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/low100_definitions_39.html
Link's Awakening DX Requirements:
-Collect all 8 instruments and beat the game
-Have 14 hearts at the end (3 initial, 8 containers, 12 heart pieces)
-Have all 12 inventory slots filled (basically required to finish the game anyway, but whatever)
-Obtain the level 2 sword, shield, and bracelet
-Get all item capacity upgrades (powder, bombs, arrows)
-Obtain the red or blue tunic (must get it by beating the color dungeon)
-Obtain the magnifying lens and trade something for the boomerang (shovel recommended)
-Get all 12 photos
-S+Q allowed by default; up+down,doghouse,map glitches banned

Within THIS definition, it never mentions getting any seashells, and thus there's no implied anything, and seashell duping would be allowed, because the only requirements are getting all of the item upgrades. That's the only argument I was able to use to fend off the "YOU DIDN'T GET 100% YOU DIDN'T GET ALL THE SEASHELLS" haters when I first ran the category. On top of this, I don't think you can compare seashell duping with heart piece duping. When you dupe a heart piece, you're getting more than the maximum. The other heart pieces are still on the map, you can collect them, and you can end up with more than 14 hearts. When you get the L-2 sword, all of the seashells (regardless of WHICH ones you picked up) disappear. Not just from the map, but from your inventory screen altogether. In that sense, the seashells are a means to an end (the L-2 sword) and nothing more. This may sound familiar, because it's the exact same logic used to justify getting only 20 of the 26 total seashells in the first place.

And to be honest, if we're not going to allow this, I feel like we need to set up a more consistent set of rules for the category. Why are we allowed to skip large sections of the trading sequence, but the seashells are off limits to sequence breaking? I know Choto was playing devil's advocate, but I feel like he brings a good point to the table. Speedrunning is about going fast. In my eyes, 100% isn't about "showing the game off". That's what let's plays are for. 100% speedruns are about getting 100% completion as fast as possible, and getting 20 seashells through duping has the exact same effect as getting 20 seashells through collecting them individually (in that there is no way to get any additional seashells once the sword is obtained). If we want to show off more of the game, just make a category that gets all 26 seashells, and the maps/compasses/beaks, or something. Similar to the "Legacy" category that uses English. But I feel that 100% is still, at it's core, about completing the game quickly.

This feels so much like the "English vs. Japanese" discussion to me, it's kinda crazy. "The run is less entertaining when you can't read the text" was an argument that came up back then, and I feel that's the primary argument I've seen against seashell duping so far in this thread. I just feel like we can't simply say "bomb glitches are ok, but just not this time because it's less fun". We have to very deliberately and specifically change the requirements/definition of the category if we're going to disallow this, imo. No unspoken rules.

I feel like I wouldn't be so passionate about this point if it weren't directly going against the definition that I've personally been using for the last 3+ years (and if I didn't get such a strong sense of deja vu from it). But regardless, I'm probably gonna be a stubborn butt no matter how this goes down, and just run 100% with duping whenever I go back to it. If the community disagrees with me, then I just won't have my 100% times up on a leaderboard anymore, lol.

Phew, anyway, sorry if I got kinda heated. Obviously no hate towards anyone. Just felt like I needed to get my feelings out, and I tend to go on big passionate rants when I do that. 😛

aullosaullos, Warr90Warr90 and 4 others like this. 
  GreenTunicGreenTunic

Man does cransoon ever make a compelling argument about the rules, not sure what to think lol

Is this gonna be another vote thing or what's the solution here exactly?

 
  ZorlaxSevenZorlaxSeven

I disagree with Cransoon's arguments. First, he's using a definition of 100% that most (if not all) others do not use. Granted, that ruleset came from an SDA thread. However, those rules would only apply to SDA runs. Most others started running this category from ZSR which has the ruleset I described. (Lastly, the rules from SRC are based off of ZSR rules).

The fundamental part of Cransoon's argument is that 100% does not intend to show off the game. Whether or not you agree with that will decide how you feel on this issue. I personally feel that 100% should show off as much of the game as possible. What everyone else feels is going to be a matter of debate. However, I will say that more recent historical precedent indicates that we keep as much of the game as we can. (Within limits).

What are these limits? These limits are from the rules themselves. Cransoon brings up the point of us skipping the trading sequence. This is a very valid point. If I were in discussions 3+ years ago about what to keep in and what not to keep in, I would have argued for the trading sequence. However, the rules were written with the idea of the trading sequence being skipped in mind. Runs were performed. Times were verified. We can't go back and add in new restrictions that invalidate old runs, the only thing we can do is make sure that future runs do not suffer the same issues.

Lastly, the age-old Jp vs US debate. Switching between the two languages does not take any content out of the game. What we're talking about really does. Again, I was not around when those discussions were taking place. From what I heard is that the refusal to change languages was really not a community effort. That's the difference now: We are discussing this, as a community.

I don't know where exactly we go from here. I personally would like to hear more discussion from more persons within the community before we all make a decision.

-Z7

 
  SwordlessLinkSwordlessLink

I am for allowing this for the reasons Cransoon outlined. I'll summarise my thoughts as well.

- One analogy would be comparing it to skulltula duping in OoT. This is bad because there are 100 set skulltulas that you need to get. If we duped them, we could get more than 100. Seashells aren't the same thing as this because they vanish from the map once you've turned in 20/26 of them for the L2 sword.

- Cloning them is more akin to cloning money than cloning heart pieces. In a way, we (I) already do this by S&Qing before the shopkeeper can take your money from you when you buy bombs.

- It's a totally valid use of the bomb glitch which we're allowing in many other places.

- How is it different from heart piece duping? Same reason that it's different from skulltula duping in OoT. The seashells are just a currency, whereas the skulltulas and heart pieces aren't.

- The trading sequence thing is also a good argument. We allow skipping the start of that because the end result of it is the same no matter what. This is also true with the seashells. They disappear from your pause screen once you get the L2 sword, just like the trading sequence will always end up being the magnifying lens.

- Like GreenTunic said, if the point is to get the seashells and not the L2 sword, we should be getting 26/26 and not 20/26. The only goal is to get the L2 sword, and the seashells are just the CURRENCY which allow this to happen. This is probably the strongest point, IMO.

I will likely be doing this glitch in my runs regardless of what people think. It's awesome and 100% legit in my mind.

Warr90Warr90 likes this. 
  ChotoTheBrightChotoTheBright

Could we not just allow both? If you are a runner who likes collecting the shells from the overworld, do it. If you are a runner who would rather dup the shells, do it. Has anyone tested the time differences? How significant is it? Are completion times an underlying issue here?

Say two runners who do hundo are neck and neck on most everything else, but runner A has the edge over runner B because runner A duplicates his shells whilst runner B collects them traditionally. Thus, runner A would have a faster time and be higher on the leaderboard. Naturally, this could cause somewhat of a stir in say, a race but if we are talking about 2 runners using 2 different techniques then game on.

Zorlax and Cransoon have mentioned the different rule sets in their posts. This says to me that we do genuinely need a universal rule set that we can all follow. And like it or not, those rules may have to be varied or altered over time. Speedrunning is an ever evolving thing. Games are broken and new strats are discovered and we would be limiting ourselves if we did not adjust or update the rules from time to time. Run times shouldn't stand forever, y'all.

CransoonCransoon and GreenTunicGreenTunic like this. 
Latest News
View all
No news
Recent Threads
View all
Thread Author
3ds
Last post
StompeeStompee
1 replies
Question Thread for New Runners
Last post
RiddlerRiddler
50 replies
Emulador
Last post
MarcosggizyMarcosggizy
1 replies
Poll: Main category on speedrun.com
Last post
dragonc0dragonc0
1 replies
LiveSplit layout for LADX
Last post
Nemesis1ccNemesis1cc
1 replies