FlynnFlynn

I really can't believe we're going through this again. We had rules that we all agreed and seemed to work, and for the most part people seemed happy with. Yes out of bounds is a dumb name, but at this point as a title its nothing but a relic of the past. At least last time we went through this it was because of a bunch of new tech, this time we're just rocking the boat largely due to one tweet mab made when he didn't understand the rules that were in place. Now we're also in that zone where no one wants to run just because runs might start becoming invalidated. And considering what has happened in the past, for the communities sake we need a lot better of a reason than anything that's been mentioned to consider actual changes.

Keep the same rules. Maybe change the name of the category, it really doesn't matter, call it warpless or whatever. No new rooster skip. No D4 ceiling tile jump.

I agree with everything Z said as well.

 
  DelnDeln

to answer flynn on this, i would just remove D8/D6 jumps(even if they arent used anymore) since they bring more problems.

I agree to keep the current rules.

 
  Rapid_Rapid_

d6 isnt a problem. if you get stuck then that means you were in the red tile or whatever

 
  aulosaulos

Name of the category: All Dungeons no OoA (Out of Area (yes I bring this again)) or any% no OoA

Rules:
- You may SJ in a dungeon (1)
- You may not SJ in a cave (2)
- You may not screen transition through a wall (3)
- You have to screen transition through a natural way, a natural way being any tiles but solid walls (4). Also, after the screen transition, you can not end up in a wall (5) or in a mishap place (6)
EDIT: SEE ILLUSTRATION PAGE 3
- You can do everything you want in a room (7)
- You may not No Clip
- You may not Wrong Warp

1. Allows Blaino Skip
2. Prevent the 'ceiling' problem and thus the SJ Rooster Skip
3. Prevent any SJ that permits that
4. Allows Villa Skip
5. Prevent Pre-Flame Foutain clip on this screen:

6. Prevent Grim Creeper glitch
7. Allows D7 NK skip and D6 SJ

I'm sure one can reformulate it better as I'm bad in English.
Why Out of Area? Because it removes the 'bounds' term which is non sense in this game, and because it is very, imho, visual and more comprehensible than the bounds. If anything, I developed the idea of OoA in this post.

 
  DelnDeln

gotta bring it up again, villa skip is anything but a natural screen transition.

 
  aulosaulos

'a natural way being any tiles but solid walls'

this is why i said it could be reformulate better. As long as there is nothing which prevent Link from screen transitioning, it would be a natural way. Natural as 'the map shape permits it', not as 'you can go there casually'

 
  aulosaulos

No because you end up in a wall after the screen transition, as the flame fountain 'V2'.

And you cannot SJ in a cave so you can't even reach those screen edges.

 
  CravoneCravone

I think this could be much better cleared up just with short concised rulesets on each category page. For instance:

Any% Rules:

Finish The Game.

------

All Instruments%:

Collect all 8 instruments.
Finish The Game

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Any% No S&Q:

Collect all 8 instruments.
Finish The Game

No Wrong Warp
No Out of Bounds
No ACE
No S&Q
No Deathwarps

See definitions at bottom

------

Any% S&Q:

Collect all 8 instruments
Finish The Game

No Wrong Warp
No Out of Bounds
No ACE

See definitions at bottom

------

100%:

Collect all 8 Instruments
Collect all 12 Heart Pieces
Collect all 3 Upgrades (Powder, Bombs, Arrows)
Collect all 12(?) Pictures
Collect Ocarina + All 3 songs
Collect Level 2 Sword from 20 Seashells
Collect Boomerang through trading quest
Collect either blue or red tunic
Finish The Game

No Wrong Warp
No Out Of Bounds
No ACE

See definitions at bottom

------

Definitions:

Wrong Warp - A screen transition that takes you to a destination unintended by the game. (Suggested by Disclude)
Example: Doghouse, Grim Creeper Warp

--

Out of Bounds -
1. Screen transitioning where the last tile Link's Sprite occupied is a tile unable to be naturally occupied by Link's Sprite.
2. Positioning Link's Sprite on two consecutive tiles in which Link's Sprite cannot naturally occupy.
3. Using Superswim to Remove Collision.
Examples of OoB: Walls, Doors, Areas outside of designated cave walls.
Examples of Non-OoB: Pits, Lava, Water, Switch Blocks.

--

ACE (Arbitory Code Execution) - Using file names to warp to credits.

--

S&Q - Using the save and quit function.

--

Deathwarping - Intentionally or Unintentionally dieing where the number of screen transitions to the next destination is less than if a death had not occurred.

These are in effect what we have at the moment. I think the key here is where Link's sprite can naturally appear. Under this, the debated topics:

- Villa Skip - Allowed
- Dungeon 4 Tunnel Traveling to D4 - Banned
- Jesus Jumping - Allowed
- Dungeon 6 Boss Key Superjump Return - Allowed if done correctly, Softlocking counts as OoB
- Rooster Skip Skip - Banned
- Flame Skip Skip - Banned
- Blaino Skip - Banned
- Dungeon 8 Switchblock Skip - Allowed
- Dungeon 7 Boss Key Skip - Allowed
- Grim Creeper Glitch - Banned
- Dungeon 4 Superswim - Banned

Does this make it easier to understand? I do not know the exact definitions for WW and ACE, so correct me with those, and take what you will from those definitions. Just putting my input in to see if I could add clarity to what we already have.

 
  oSeabassoSeabass

I am going to echo what Flynn and Zorlax said. If the sticking point is the Blaino skip in D8 cus of that one off tile, I missed that in the original discussions. I think all the other things of the +1 nonsense I came up with works.

Don't allow the Blaino skip tile.
Don't invalidate runs using it (there are newer glitches that CAN be used that save more time).
I don't think the "corner" in D6 is an issue. Draw a grid like the game is programmed in an XY plane (cus it is) and then see where you can walk. Is that +1 block in any direction? Yea. Then it's chill. The D8 one goes +2: from the north, Block THEN tile. East: Tile under the torches, wall, THEN tile. West: Wall then tile. South: Not accessable.

 
  GreenTunicGreenTunic

Cravone's rulesets and definitions sound perfect to me. This is what i'd like to see happen.

 
  aulosaulos

There's a problem with your OoB definition Cravone, as Grim Creeper glitch isn't a Wrong Warp.

 
  ZorlaxSevenZorlaxSeven

[Also 100% will need to be tightened up to include things like, "acquire EACH of the 12 pieces of heart", and "get Color tunic FROM the Color dungeon."]

Also "Positioning Link's Sprite on two consecutive tiles in which Link's Sprite cannot naturally occupy," implies that wall clipping to bypass enemies (exiting D2, Armos knight maze) is not allowed.

 
  TompaTompa

Just copying this from Skype as a little "comparision" of sorts... I hope you get what I mean with this:

Tompa: The stairs on floor 3 in D7, before collapse, are interesting... Should they be allowed?
[00:03:58] Tompa: But if the stairs would take you inside the egg. Would they be allowed?
[00:05:48] Tompa: It's just that: If we say yes to the stairs, then we also have to say yes to their destination, right?
[00:06:09] Tompa: Here it is "lucky" that they take us to a place in the same dungeon, without skipping too much
[00:06:35] Tompa: But where will the line go?
[00:07:39] Tompa: If my point is understood =)
[00:07:46] giuocob: that was exactly the problem with the celing walk in tal tal heights
[00:07:55] giuocob: we were ok with it when it just skipped a couple rooms
[00:08:05] giuocob: but once the same trick broke the game we had to go back and retcon everything
[00:09:48] Tompa: If another stairs would exist, let's say in D1, but they took you to the egg, then no one would allow those stairs, but still allow the one in D7, despite being the same thing technically
[00:10:03] Tompa: Similar case would be to allow Doghouse 1 but not Doghouse 2
[00:10:44] Tompa: My point being: The origin is that the community want glitches that don't skip "too much" but still skips "certain things"
[00:11:09] Tompa: Sometimes that makes certian glitches allowed in special places, because in other places they would be too major
[00:11:25] Tompa: So "external rules" were made so that the major places would not working on the ruleset
[00:12:16] Tompa: Something is found, saves 1 second in a dungeon. Then crap: This can be use here too which saves 1 minute! We don't want to skip that... What should we do? Hmm, let's say because of that and that, we may not use the glitch there. Everyone OK? OK, good
[00:12:26] Tompa: And arbitary rules have been created, yet again

Also: Why isn't something like D5 boss key skip technically allowed?

 
  aulosaulos

Okay so I'm illustrating my rule about Screen Transitioning, as it is not well written.

So Villa Skip is a problem, the screen edge being there.

My definition of natural ways would be everything but walls, as long as you don't arrive in a wall after Screen Transitioning it's ok. Like, the 'natural' being literally 'how the lands are shaped'.

Let's take this place, and imagine if there would be a screen edge there. It would still be alright, just because the way it is shaped makes it possible.

Now if we do this with the Villa Skip, it looks like this, therefore, it's alright to do Villa Skip.

However, what about this screen? Let's take a look at how it is when you Screen Transition. Well, there's a wall in there, and even if you fall in the pit as you fall in Villa Skip, the wall are not the same as flowers, you can't break them or anything. Then, the shape of this room looks like this. So it is not allowed. Same with Flame Fountain Skip 'V2'.

 
  Rapid_Rapid_

No ruleset for this game will ever be dependable. I think we should just stick to the old one because this isn't going to work out...

mabdulramabdulra likes this. 
  aulosaulos

We are going to stick to the old ones. But we are also going to rewrite them properly. That's all.

 
  mpghappinessmpghappiness

I said I'd post here a little while ago, just remembered

yay for mab's ruleset

 
  SurrealGuySurrealGuy

I also agree with Zorlax.
The only well-defined categories at the moment are any% and No major glitches (Legacy%).
I was also thinking that our current ruleset is really weird, but in retrospective it worked out really nice. We should just go and disallow Blaino skip from now on, because that's what Seabass' ruleset said (no big deal, no real need to delete/unverify runs because of that).
To the (maybe OoB) SJ in D6: I found another way around that a few weeks ago. After getting the NK clip into the pots and Flockclip past the keyblock (and get the small key afterwards). Might even be faster than the SJ (also saves a menu). VoD:

I really don't know how I should decide this. On the one hand I think: Woohoo! No more Rooster skip! But on the other hand I think I would miss these tension-filled moments when RS is coming up.

For now I'll say, let's just stick to the old ruleset, but define it better.
(I also wouldn't mind yet another category which allows some of the more "crazy" SJs + superswimming)

Warr90Warr90 likes this.