DelnDeln

i dont see the point in this, just leave it as it is...

 
  UlquiorraUlquiorra

So it allows us to use the "rooster skip of champions" ? Anyways to me even by doing that it will be complicated cause super jumps are a problem. But All dungeons is a better name to me. So yeah i'm ok if rules change like that, I don't care that much to be honest, but its important to have a precise ruleset. Sry for bad english and hope you will all have fun with this game regardless of the rules.

 
  HawkrexHawkrex

(If my english is approximative in this post, sorry for this 😕 )

First thing I want to say is that we should talk about it during 1 or 2 weeks max (not 1 month like for SJs). You all know why I say that.
So if in 1 or 2 weeks, it's not over, we should stay with the rules we already have.

If I wanted to give my definitions of WW an OOB in LA/DX, I would say WW is when you transition from a region to another region of the game. I would define a region as parts of the maps. So regions are overworld, dungeon 1, dugeon 2 .... dugeon 8, and for other indoors screen, an indoor region is a set of room that are connected in the normal way (so the two screens of d4 path is a region).

If you want a clear view of what I would define as an area, watch this map -> http://portfolio16.de/zelda/map4/map_en.htm You can click on the different screens to see the indoors maps.

To me, an OOB would be simply any way of getting outside the normal ways. For instance, many SJs would be OOB, Villa skip would be OOB, Moblin skip too. If you don't walk or move normally (like a "casual" player), it would be an OOB. WW is an OOB of course.

I hope it is clear enough. I think defining those two terms as above would clear the problems we encountered. If you see ambiguities or if something lack, tell us.

In terms of categories :
¤ it doesn't affect :
- Any%
- Legacy%

¤ i don't know for :
- All instruments

¤ it changes :
- Any% No WwOob -> Some sort of glitchless run
- Any% No Ww -> Actual No WwOob

I repeat, that is my point of view, respect it and keep in mind it's not THE truth.

 
  Rapid_Rapid_

I like mab's definition but I don't want things to change again. But whatever I guess...

EDIT: actually I don't care either way now.

 
  DiscludeDisclude

I still like the original one we had that Seabass came up with of Only being allowed to SJ to an area that is within 1 adjacent(left right, above or below; not diagonal) of a NORMALLY walkable area(normally being defined as a walkable tile you can reach without using any kinds of glitches).

As mab has pointed out though on twitter, there has been a SJ that breaks this rule used in runs. That SJ being the Blaino Skip SJ. I'm pretty sure this was an oversight when we refined the rules to the walkable block having to be reachable without using a glitch(which stopped us from doing Flame Skip "v2").

This SJ is now obsolete with the route change of skipping mambo(and the ocarina); so I don't think old runs should be invalidated due to this, but I think that blaino skip should be disallowed for all future runs, and the rule of SJing only being allowed to jump to a block that is within 1 adjacent tile distance from a normally walkable tile being the rule by which SJ oob's is defined.

Edit: Removed my vote for now while discussions continue to make an informed decision.

 
  Warr90Warr90

Tired of understanding this and discussing 🙂

Mab your definition is good.

I currently enjoy the SJ route in place but I don't do the bomb skips at this current time. If the rules change to the suggestions you've made I would have no issues with that.

Rules need to be clear for everyone to understand.

"yay"

🙂

 
  CravoneCravone

For me, it's a difficult call. I understand what is defined in the OoB ruleset, but thats because I was around during the discussions. Newer runners weren't. I do think it works, and blaino skip was overlooked, it should be banned if we follow OoB. But then again, how do we know what OoB really means in terms of the game. What if something even more controversial is found. What if for instance a boss key clip was found to skip a boss door, is that OoB or not?

I do like preserving rooster skip because otherwise a run can get too predictable, but rule sets are for guidelines and clarity, not because people want a trick in it.

For me, to make a decision, I have to weigh up something we already know and accept in the risk of any new tech giving us more decisions to make again, or changing the route because of a more clearer ruleset, and honestly it's tough for me to decide. The way I see it, we have two scenarios:

1. Remove OoB, allow rooster skip skip, allow quick D4 entry, allow flame skip skip, allow quick D4 BK superswim, allow blaino skip.
2. Stick with the current ruleset, have discussions everytime something is found, ban all of the above, allow blaino skip on existing runs, but ban in future.

1 gives so much more clarity and less ambiguous discussions if anything is found.
2 is a route we know, that most of us understand, there will always be doubt. Honestly, over the last hour I have changed my mind 3 or 4 times, swayed by what other people say, but I have to say for myself, I believe the clarity of removing OoB outweighs keeping it.

A few extra points I want to mention:

- I don't think we can speak for LA, LA is a different game.
- I back up the value of renaming the categories, I think All Dungeons should have (No WW) in the title still.
- On the topic of S&Q, I have been thinking, I don't think there is room for both categories, but that's another discussion for another day.

The main thing though, I do not want this discussion to last a month again. I would say put it to a poll ASAP, say by next friday it has to be decided.

My vote is a very slight 'yay', but my vote is also, let's decide on this before christmas.

 
  GreenTunicGreenTunic

No, the d8 blaino skip sj should simply be disallowed and the D6 one too if need be. That satisfies the need to not allow sj's to places you cannot normally reach. Rules should then be enforced from the day of decision for all future runs and NOT affect past runs.

 
  DiscludeDisclude

A cleared up definition of the current ruleset in terms of out of bounds in regards to super jumps:

You can Super Jump to an area that is within 1 adjacent(left, right, above or below; not diagonal) tile of a normally accessible tile, where normally is defined as a tile which the player can reach in normal gameplay without the use of glitches.
You may only transition screens while on a normally(as defined previously) accessible tile. So, while on tiles that are within 1 adjacent tile, you may not transition screens.

(I think that covers everything that was previously discussed/decided on; let me know if I'm missing anything.)

 
  Rapid_Rapid_

I think the All Dungeons thing needs to be changed. A dungeon should be classified as a level with an instrument at the end of it rather than something with a boss to be defeated at the end AND also has an instrument at the end. They work either way, but its important to specify what defeating a boss means; if you despawn a boss, does that mean you defeated it?

 
  DiscludeDisclude

Also, I'm not sure how your rules work in regards to the D7 BK skip Mab...I wouldn't call walking on the raising blocks through a transition a natural exit to the room with the blocks up.

Either way, I'd be okay with either rule set. The original is my preference, but both are ok and generally clear to me; I just want this all sorted out QUICKLY...I want to get running, and I don't want to run while these discussions are going on at all.

 
  CravoneCravone

Also, rapid just said this:

'i want mab's ruleset inside of me
thats where im standing'

 
  DelnDeln

also "all dungeons" is misleading because COLOR dungeon IS a dungeon.

 
  DarkoDarko

heres the run

difference
-after putting the key of D4 path
-skipped D4 mini-boss to get BK later (superswim)
-did blaino skip, idk why some people wants to ban this
-rooster skip
-superswim D4 BK (you can get stuck inside the chest, be careful)

 
  Rapid_Rapid_

Its funny that this wasn't brought up here, but isn't what we currently do for the d7 boss key skip an unnatural exit? You can't normally get on those switch blocks when they are toggled on, meaning that what we do in that room is unnatural. Technically this doesn't matter too much, as we can just do the Goomba method, but this would ban a LOT of runs if it were to be considered unnatural. Likewise, this would also be banned with the current ruleset; you can't get on those tiles with normal movement, and the last switch block we walk on isn't within a +1 walkable tile . So we need to discuss this more thoroughly, regardless of a change.

 
  ZorlaxSevenZorlaxSeven

My personal suggestion is to remove SJ's all together, but that's neither here nor there.

The Seabass ruleset works.
-There is only one MINOR violation and that's in D8. Luckily, that violation is a variance of at most 3-4s compared to traditional routing.
-We do not need to allow SuperSwimming (which should be very very much so banned in main category).
-D6 is only "technically" out of bounds if you get stuck in the corner. If you get stuck in the corner, you have to Mambo out or SQ as it is, so you're not actually USING the "OoB".
-D7 isn't an unnatural transition. You're on walkable tiles. You can make that transition in that direction in a casual playthrough. Unnatural transitions are transitions in directions that the game would not let you take. (Think: Villa skip. That is done from an "unnatural" tile, but the game intends for you to make that South screen transition a couple tiles to the East.)

There is absolutely no need for ANOTHER rule overhaul. We can simply say that any run occurring after such and such date can not walk on that tile for D8. Like what was done for Dying on stairs as well as the old Tal Tal Heights OoB. (And even then, I don't think the D8 tile is really a big deal).

-Z7

 
  CravoneCravone

I am very much on the fence, in that, I am not too fussed either way. However, using mab's suggested ruleset would be a lot clearer in the future if something even more marginal than SJ was found. What if the same drama over SJs happens again with another trick. That is why I think removing the OoB restriction is a good idea, but I don't feel too strongly about either.

 
  DiscludeDisclude

As it was brought up in the other thread; Villa Skip is an issue I think. For the current ruleset we have, you can make the argument that pits are an accessible tile, although you can't stay on them, you can access them normally, and thus you can transition off that screen using that pit tile.
While for mab's suggested ruleset, I can't see an argument for villa skip, since it's not a natural transition. That slight difference in wording makes a world of difference in application. Unless the wording is only for in dungeons, but then what are the rules for the overworld?

 
  DelnDeln

yeah, but that transition is NOT natural in any way.