So Neural89 recently overtook atalito's 0-10 WR using a technique that many of us have been aware of for years. I'd estimate there are at least 10 players who could have done the same at any point, but there was sort of an unwritten rule within the Dr. Mario community that you "just don't." Yesterday, in less than 3 hours, I was able to record a run of 10:29 by timing the start on a seed I had practiced. Within 24 hours, I was able to come up with one much faster than that.

I wanted to open the conversation about whether Neural's run (and future similar runs) should be in a new category. In my mind, perfecting a seed that has been practiced is a totally different skill set than "sight-reading" a seed that you haven't seen before and solving in real time, which is how every other submission (to my knowledge) in the 0-10 and 0-20 leaderboards was achieved.

Unless there's some method I'm not aware of, such a category would have to be on the honor system (i.e. self-reported), as I cannot come up with an objective way to distinguish between a run where a player presses start without knowledge of timing and one where he does, though in Neural's case it's very obvious. To his credit, he's not trying to conceal it at all and was well within the rules to do so. I can sympathize with moderators not wanting to be in the business of making these judgment calls, which is probably why the rules update Frank posted in 2022 was written as such. The rules don't ban timing the seed. They just attempt to eliminate save states as a means of making it easier for emulator players to do so.

I don't necessarily expect anything to come from this, but thought I'd bring this up before what I expect will be the inevitable cascade of WR submissions to follow (maybe there are some in the queue already), which I think will somewhat trivialize the accomplishments of atalito, inari and countless others who spent hundreds, even thousands of hours honing their skills to achieve their personal best times. Obviously, any of those players are free to practice a seed and submit a new time, but again, this is a totally different skill, and I think if nothing is done, we'll end up with a leaderboard that has a mix of the two types of runs. I know a lot of people even within the Dr. Mario community don't care, but at least a few do.

Thanks for your consideration!

It's not a fact that the previous world records were not based on learned patterns, as Neural did.

I'm not a runner of this game,but i would tell,that,the matter of fact that may somebody was using this technic before

So doing again another category for this is nonsence,its a speedrun,game is evolving,finding strats,manips and so on its usual for it,and just "trivialize the accomplishments",its not,players just found new strat and bring it,its even better,old runners could comeback and do the same

I had a good example,like with this puzzle-game "Tengen Tetris", players doing the same thing as they do here,find a frame and learn pattern,but nobody create another category

@NeGAtiv4k, what is your statement based on? I'd bet that no one in the top 20 submitted a practiced seed. Otherwise, the WR up until recently would be much faster than 10:51. Do you honestly think that there aren't countless players who could have done better than Neural's run by employing this tactic?

@ZendoiKaban, you said, "I'm not a runner of this game." That much is clear from what you wrote here. Players didn't "find a new strat." It has been known for many years, and even mediocre players could have taken the WR at any time. I expected you wouldn't be keen on creating a new category just from an enforcement standpoint, but I really didn't expect these kinds of responses.

@floyd_1977 yet again, if the players already knew the strat for many years, so,why players or mods didnt ban it or create the separate category before?

And if i was rude in my reply, i apologize

@ZendoiKaban saying it shouldn’t be banned because it wasn’t already banned is circular logic.

No worries, I may have been a bit rude myself, so I apologize as well. As I mentioned, it was sort of an unwritten rule, and for the 5 years I've been around at least, no one broke it.

Inari held the record for half that time, followed by atalito until recently. You can see the steady progression of the time improvements in those 5 years. At any point, inari, atalito or anyone really could have submitted a time that blew away the WR.

I realize "the honor system" isn't a way to run things. I guess I was hoping someone with wider speedrun experience might know how similar situations were handled in other games, but it sounds like the answer is "anything goes."

@EvryTimeWeSlay so if its not, than they can use it and didnt make a conversation, but not after they use and they remember

@floyd_1977 i understand,but,as i had in moderation so many games and i run many of them,where strats has changed and like nobody is doing separeta category for that

So just IMO, its shouldnt be done as a different category

And by telling "The honor system" i understand you as a player and like you,that you grind a game without rng manip and so on,but, as mention before and like and Example,tengen tetris have similar situation "I understand is different puzzle games,but,situation is similar"

yet again, Inari,Atalito or anyone as you say,they could come back and smash WR with this kinda strats,even making a new rng manip with different and faster frame

https://www.speedrun.com/drmariones/runs/yl9w86xy - A clear example is that the current run uses a learned pattern. I will never in my life believe that they use improvisation here to get through

0-20 with glitch? Well yeah, of course, and that is in a different category, which is exactly what I'm asking for.

I want to show by this that any run can be memorized, regardless of the category, it's just that in this category it's clearly visible that everything is memorized here.

Thank you for your feedback @EmilSinkler. I guess I'll submit my 9:58 WR then. Now that is absurd.

Rules can be changed, as Frank did in 2022. The rule was unspoken. I'm asking if it's possible for it to be explicit, and now I have my answer.

You guys act like once rules are established they can never be changed, which is definitely not the case.

Hey all! When I first got the notification of Neural's record I was super excited to imitate the strategy, and I was all for keeping the leaderboard integrated. My opinion has changed over the last few days, and here are some reasons why.

Neural's run is amazing and completed totally within the rule set as written, nobody wants to take that away from him. However, the type of strategizing, practice, and performance required to compete on a rehearsed seed are an entirely different skill from "sight-reading," or playing a random seed with the goal to improve your reaction time, split second decision making, and game intuition. There should and soon will be many more runs like Neural's, so there should be a leaderboard to display those accomplishments. The problem is there is also a wider community of players who want to compete in a random seed category, myself included.

I spent much of last night reviewing the seed from my personal best and rerouting based on the pill sequence I ended up getting. I have only routed levels 0-5 right now, but I've already cut 51 seconds off my time! I will continue routing the rest before the New Year and will post a record time I estimate in the 9:45 range. I enjoy this process, but I also want to keep my 11:12 random seed pb. And when I play the game to improve my skills and entertain Twitch viewers, I want to play unseeded, as I enjoy that more, and I would still like there to be a category for that.

One last consideration. The ruleset disallowed the use of savestates to prevent emulator players from gaining an advantage. However, in practicing seeded runs, players who have access to tools for seed identification and modded versions of the game to practice those seeds have a huge advantage over players running on unmodified consoles. Therefore, I vote that we should allow savestates if we allow seeded runs, because it is a quality of life improvement for those with savestate access, and in fact does not give them an advantage in the arguably more central process of crafting a record run, which is routing and rehearsing it.

Plenty of communities have categories that separate out strategies that players don't like to protect runners who want to keep doing it the old way. Consider Ocarina of Time, which includes the following categories -- Any%, Glitchless, Defeat Ganon, No Wrong Warp.

Repeat the run, what's the problem? )))))

@floyd_1977 we didnt talk that we can never change the rules,we talk about that "unspoken rules" if they have know for years of this,why they just didnt make a separate category immediately? Or they didnt put it in a rules for people that not belong to the community and just want to complete the game"as fast as possible"and doesnt care about this rules that just know 5 people,doesnt it like speedrun works?

And yet again,if community had an unspoken rules,than why Neural run is verified?

I like how @inphlox respond here,and i agree with a lot of thing that he said and i understand him,but again,it should be already been separate like 3 years ago OR at least been said in a rules "no rng manip"

Sorry, by community, I meant DrMC, which holds 18 of the top 20 spots. I don't think DrMC has any control over the categories on speedrun.com, but this leaderboard was set up long before my time, so I can't speak to that. So I'm not sure who the "they" is that you're referring to.

Not sure why some people keep bringing up the fact that "the category didn't exist before, so why now". Whatever happened in the past is irrelevant to the current situation.

Now that there is interest in running two unique rulesets of the game, players should be able to compare themselves to the other times using the same ruleset.

I agree that creating a new category for this isn't necessarily the way to go, but we at least need a way to differentiate between these two types of runs.

I'd like to address some arguments that, in my opinion, are not being made in good faith.

Repeat the run, what's the problem?

players just found new strat and bring it,its even better,old runners could comeback and do the same

The old runners are in this thread, telling you they don't consider it better and don't want to come back and do the same. Of the people supporting the current rule set, only one has ever registered a run of Dr. Mario. There is even at least one example I know of where a top-10 player made an RNG-manip run, then went back to playing without manip and registered additional runs later.

with this puzzle-game "Tengen Tetris", players doing the same thing as they do here,find a frame and learn pattern,but nobody create another category

There is absolutely no conflict between "group of people A like to do things this way" and "group of people B like to do things that way".

if the players already knew the strat for many years, so,why players or mods didnt ban it or create the separate category before?

if they have know for years of this,why they just didnt make a separate category immediately?

You're right, this was a mistake. We should have been asking for this years ago. We have realized our mistake and are asking now.

No one is obligated to add new categories just because you have a preference for what a speedrun should look like.

That is the only reason to add new categories.

if community had an unspoken rules,than why Neural run is verified?

Neural did not break any of the existing rules. Nobody is claiming they did. Not only that, we are all in awe of the run, we think it's very impressive. It should be verified, and it should stay verified. All of those facts are true, and also I'd like to have a new category.