Forums  /  Devil May Cry 5  /  Possibility of New Categories (Open Discussion; Please Read Before Answering)
  DECosmicDECosmic

So now that DMC5 has been upon us for 5 months now and categories have been explored a bit, I think it's time to look at expanding the boards somewhat and have some discussion regarding that.

I'll begin this discussion by saying that we're looking for interesting and unique categories, not arbitrary ones. It will be on you as runners to route and run categories you think deserve the attention. We love having more runners obviously, but we don't want redundant/boring categories simply for the sake of being inclusive. As an example of redundancy, look at the NG+ categories in dmc2, where all difficulties are now under the same board because of basically no difference between the categories.

The following are what's currently on the table to be in the main board:

-Heaven or Hell difficulty
-All Orbs + Secret Missions category

As for Super Costumes and something like Faustless NG+ or Restricted NG+, I know people have asked for these before. And trust me, I feel your pain on NG+ Faust invalidating a lot of Dante's tools (This was a big part of me moving to NG).

Before I get into Faust more though, this is what I'll say as far as Super Costumes: I'm sure they're fun casually, but when the game came out we wanted to encourage people to learn the game and characters, so we sidelined these costumes. We can definitely discuss having them for a miscellaneous category, however. I'm personally not opposed to that whatsoever.

As far as Faust goes, we can go about that multiple ways, but it's really a matter of whether or not we want a universal solution or solutions tailored to PC or Console each. How we solve that, I'd like to leave in the hands of the community to discuss. I have my own ideas, but I want to hear what everyone else is thinking first.

As a last note, if you have ideas for another category that could prove interesting (maybe something like RE4's No Merchant?), please bring it forward. As a reminder, if you want a category to be considered, you have to run it, record it, and show that it can be interesting enough to be maintained on the leaderboard.

 
  THEhobo55THEhobo55

As one of the few console runners my view on orbs and Faust are a little different. I have to say we should only have full Faust and no Faust runs we can't make an in between, this would make things more complicated than they need to be.

My view is that super costumes aren't really needed that necessary although they would be fine under misc. I find they dont do much but take away some of the skill involved with the run.

HoH is intriguing but I dont think it would get ran probably end up like the prologue boards just sitting forgotten and all orbs/ secret missions doesn't really apply to me as I'm not that much of a fan of NG (could it be implemented into NG+?)

Other runs that would be interesting but probably forgotten would be all S rank or no damage.

 
  LonerHeroLonerHero

First of, the only thing that brings my mind on new category is when capcom actually releases DLCs that makes Dante/Nero/V/Vergil runs all 20 Missions. Other than that perhaps low % (That would be really long tho). I cannot speak much for All Orbs + Secret Mission category since that does not interest me however, I would suggest to see if fair amount of runner would actually run this rather than making it obsolete.

Heaven or Hell showed interesting runs from previous DMCs (3 and 4), so I am down with that category being added.

What bugs me on Super Costumes is that there is nothing really interesting going on it will just end up running like Onimusha Ultimate mode or vanilla DMC4 where you just charge a head and HW might as well just HoH at this point.

I understand the frustration for faust, but I just came to accept that it is part of the game's mechanic therefore, Faustless category would be just running DMC4 itemless category aka not using HW and such.

tldr; Only Heaven or Hell difficulty gets a pass for me

 
  ArtyloArtylo

I'm personally not against having shorter categories when it comes to runtime. Categories like HoH and Super Costumes won't get as much traffic as NG and NG+, of course, but I think they might provide valuable information, eventually, since the combat won't be at the center of attention when it comes to optimization. That, in my mind, would likely lead to optimizations in movement, routing, skips, etc. It also might be beginner friendly category for people to just experiment with running DMCV (even more so than NG+).

I've talked about Faust many times with a lot of people in the community and most people are concerned that if Faust is removed, that means it's an open invitation to restrict other moves or weapons in the game, since then we'd likely have to look at Real Impact being the most damaging move after Faust is gone. However, I do feel like hitting a RI is at least marginally more entertaining and involved than just sitting there and deleting red orbs into an enemy or boss. The nature of Faust being a gun gives you a sense of safety, combined with DT, which makes you the Black Knight from Monty Python's The Holy Grail, as you charge up Red Hot Night.
My other concern is that it creates this air of unfairness with console runners of NG+, as they don't have access to trainers and such, so they have to manually grind missions in order to prepare for runs, while PC runners have to simply press a button. Other than that the mechanical differences between the two versions of the game are practically nonexistent, unlike some ports for some games (see Metal Gear Solid for PSX and PC). It just feels like all PC players get to use the red orb DLCs, while console players can't.
That said, I do support having Faustless%, despite the concerns. Even if the consensus is mixed, I think there is no shame in having a trial run of the category.

No Merchant might be interesting, but it will likely only ever get one or two runs per runner, since it's more of a novelty category extension. It would likely include in itself the No Deaths category, since you wouldn't want people using stacks of red orbs to revive and holy water bosses like Tek. You'd likely be limited to basically playing NG but with the added difficulty and only being able to use breakers you find (which is RNG in NG+) and only using gold orbs you find in the maps if need be. It might also be worth considering picking up blue or purple orbs in that mode, since health is scarce. Maybe considering it something more of a Low% category would put it in better terms.

S-Rank runs would be really weird, since they'd only have relevance on higher difficulties, because unless you're dying like 20 times per mission, you'll hardly get anything lower than and S or an A on Human or DH. Mission 10 and 18 will likely be the deciding ones for the category, since they have the good habit of scoring weird and giving you As. Also, resetting at mission 10 or 18 would be annoying, since you're already like 60 to 85% through the game. It's not like in DMC3, DMC4, and MGS where you have multiple statistics factoring into the rank. Here it would most likely be a No Damage category in disguise.

100% runs or All Orbs + Secret Missions doesn't sound like a worthwhile detour. Some missions require having three levels of Faust upgrades and that requires a substantial amount of grind. It might be interesting, but I don't think it has staying power.

Them's my two cents...

 
  DECosmicDECosmic

Before we continue I'd like to correct some information and say that breakers in NG are not RNG. Breakers only become RNG in NG+. Thanks.

 
  TymethiefTymethief

Alright, some thoughts:
> HoH - it's probably never going to have many runs, since HoH has never been really popular in the other games, but it honestly might be worth it just to show what a fastest possible time would look like. I'll lose my mind if you try and add HaH, though, because I'm the only person to run HaH and I'm the one who wants that cata removed from the 4SE boards, just saying.
> Super costumes - We have a SC cata for BP and I'm still literally the only person to run it, people just don't run SC catas, they didn't in the other games when SC wasn't the main cata. You could add it, but I'm just going say ahead of time that there will be basically no runs for it. If y'all want it, I recommend making it a misc. cata.
> All Orbs + Secret Missions - I'm not sure anyone is really that interested in running this.
> All S-rank - I'm with Arty, M10 and M18 tend to screw the player over on rank and it would probably just end up being more annoying than anything.
> Faustless - Yeah this one would be neat. Make a Faustless BP cata too, since that's the run that REALLY needs it, and we already have one run for that up on the boards as a proof of concept.

 
  TektheistTektheist

I personally think the movement is too basic in this game for the most part for HoH to be interesting at all, that's not to say there aren't optimisations but 90% of the time it's just hold forward. The only people I can see running this are people who won't run any other cata or help forward the game in any way, people who just want some easy speedrun with minor optimisations, in regard to the comment on skips, since combat will be so much faster the skips mean a lot less, in fact the skips on the mission where dante fights the animals become completely obsolete since all I have to do is shoot a handgun at them.

Super Costume cata I see adding absolutely nothing to the run, NG+ is already pretty damn easy even SOS so lowering the skill level even further just seems like a complete joke.

I'm also 100% against challenge runs like all S ranks or no damage/no hit, I think it doesn't have a place on a speedrun board. It just enables passive boring play and IMO usually serves to boost the runners ego and not much else.

All orbs could be a cool idea, it's the closest thing we'll have to 100%, but if there's no interest then it's pretty moot.

Faustless could be cool, however maybe 0 orb start would be more interesting. I don't really agree with the opinions that there's a problem with NG+ being different on console and PC, I mean it's really just grinding the orbs, which sucks but I mean what can you do. At the risk of sounding like an asshole, PC is usually the fastest version to run most games on due to framerate or for any number of reasons. Most communities tell people if they want to get serious to buy the game on PC (Nier as an example due to framerate on base PS4).

 
  FBIMIchaelScarnFBIMIchaelScarn

First of all thank you all for moderating, running, watching and spreading DMC in general. You all do the series a great service!

Completely biased opinions incoming:

Dante Faustless BP needs to be in, Nero's BP is excellent and I think that one change would make a huge difference to that category.

All S Rank Runs I've already done on SOS Faustless (and no SDT) and soon to be DMD so would like to see them added as well. No proof of concept needed, the runs already exist and are doable every time while playing aggressively.

I would also run Hell and Hell since that can get pretty tense with the 3 continues/hits forcing restarts.

I probably wouldn't watch 100% runs with the game currently constructed. I definitely would have no interest playing or watching super costume or HoH runs either. Heaven or Hell was probably the only time I've been mildly bored playing the game. Maybe on PS5 with 95% reduced loading times.

If all or none of these get added, I will keep playing and watching DMC either way. Thanks for reading my thoughts!

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  Darkhero_PalatinoDarkhero_Palatino

I'm really small in this community, but i would love to see these categorys:

-glitchless
-no item/orb NG+/NG
-HoH
-Faustless Fullgame and BP
-NG/NG+ with DLC

Glitchless was interressting in other games too maybe it get's some attention.

Using only what the game gives you in NG+ or having to relei on standard Dante and co. in NG would have a lot of optimization and fast responding to given situations.

HoH i would run it just for fun, probably a starting cata for movement learning and optimizing. Other catas are almost pure fighting and not stage movement.

Faustless brings more style or gameplay in generell to Dante and would be less grinde for console players.

maybe DLC opens up new ways.... I don't know haven't tried them.

Putting console and PC in the same cata is a bad idea in my opinion. PC has a lot more options (dif. load times, loadless, trainers, keyboard, controller, etc.) wich Console with standard controllers doesn't have and almost the same. Macros and other stuff is prohibited anyway, but are different controllers like Nacon rev. 1,2 or astro C40 allowed?

That's all on my part i'm not against other cata's like the 100% and all missions and stuff but i don't think they will be run that much but i could be wrong.

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  THEhobo55THEhobo55

After reading these I have found that the idea of starting with zero orbs for NG+ is a good compromise so we dont have to go full faustless. This might be a better for console version anyway.

 
  Renegade522Renegade522

definition of ng+ is all abilities items upgrades are carried over to a new game, banning stuff because of this or that is defeating the purpose of ng+ impo

 
  TektheistTektheist

Surely NG+ is defined by the community, otherwise using everything that's carried over I could load in M20 and beat it and that's a NG+ run, because I unlocked the mission select when I beat the game. There is no "definition" that's why different games have different rules.
Also why does every DMC game have Super Costume (I assume that's what you're referring to since nothing else is banned) as a completely separate category? It seems to have been long established for DMC that SC changes the gameplay enough for it to be classed as a separate category.

If you're trying to argue a case for SC in NG+ I'd appreciate if that's what you said instead of inferring things are banned, and make a case as to why SC should be the norm in a way that actually benefits the run and enjoyment of the run for the majority of players, instead of saying you have a definition of what NG+ is when one simply doesn't exist.

Also Hobo I think we could have a place for both faustless and 0 orb start, it's just whatever people would find more interesting. I think 0 orb start opens up routing possibilities on which bosses it would be best to use faust on, but I understand if that would make people enjoy the game less than if faust was outright banned. I don't think there's a correct answer to it, but I honestly think on console one of the two make a lot of sense.

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  TymethiefTymethief

For everyone trying argue for glitchless, I'd like for you to look at games with that category, and see how different those runs are from the any% ones. Because no offense, but for DMC5 it's basically pointless. One OoB section that's maybe 30 seconds long to skip either one or two fights, manipulating combat triggers to stop an encounter from spawning in M10, jumping over 1 fight in M9 and teleporting past another in the same mission. All the other skips are either dev intended or not even used in the run. Taking these glitches out don't really change the way the run is played at a fundamental level, it just makes the run take a few minutes longer because you do a few extra encounters that don't matter in any significant way.

I'm just saying, DMC4 has a glitch that lets the player clip through a floor and skip literally half a mission, and it skips about as many encounters as all the DMC5 glitches put together, as well as many other skips for mandatory fights that clearly weren't intended by the developers, and that game doesn't have a glitchless cata. The only reason DmC has glitchless catas is because there's OoB on nearly every mission, and any% is a fundamentally different run. Fallout glitchless and any% are totally different runs, NieR: Automata glitchless and any% have very different routes, DMC5 glitchless is basically the same game and the same route played in the same way with 3 or 4 extra fights. I cannot see any practical reason why we should maintain a separate leaderboard for such a small difference, especially when the glitches are so easy to learn and perform (and are perfectly consistent) that they don't impede anyone from learning the route in anyway. Would a glitchless board bring in more runners? I frankly doubt it, and the ones that join probably wouldn't stick around for very long.

In response to FBIMichaelScarn, I don't mean to be rude, but Hell & Hell is a category that people will only ever run once. People don't want to grind down times on a category where they can only get hit 3 times in a mission when they could just run SoS and get checkpoints/HWs, so it's just never going to be optimized. That's why in 4 years of the DMC4SE leaderboards being up there's literally only ever been one singular run for that difficulty. I'm pretty sure the reboot has only ever had one HaH run ever as well, but I'm not super sure about those boards since I don't really like the reboot so I didn't look into it. There's no reason to maintain a board for a singular run.

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  THEhobo55THEhobo55

The mention of a 0 orb start was agreement I think it would be much better then the banning I think it would be much more interesting and we can talk with NG and work together. This in my opinion will result in better runs to watch and more fun to run.

 
  ArthurbotanisteArthurbotaniste

Hey, so baby runner here, but I just wanted to say regarding Faust, I just think it's not exactly super fun to just disappear bosses.

Also I'm quite lazy and anxious at the idea of using cheat engine or a trainer to give me stuff, a faultless category feels like it would be quite fun to run ( it also means I could actually play dante and not feel guilty hahahaha)

Then again, I don't expect the community to cater to my cheating anxieties lmao!

Thing is you can't enforce a 0 orb start ng+ for console players? I guess

 
  Renegade522Renegade522

i can write what i wanna write and it was in response to a comment which is a different context.

mission select isnt a item abilty upgrade is it ?

refer to other games with NG+ and discover the definition.

A New Game Plus (or New Game+, often abbreviated as NG+) is an unlockable video game mode available in some video games that allows the player to start a new game after they finish it at least once, where certain features in NG+ not normally available in a first playthrough are added, and where certain aspects of the finished game affect the newly started game, such as keeping in the new game items or experience gained in the first playthrough. New Game Plus is also known as "replay mode", "remorting", "challenge mode", or "New Game Ex". The genre where they are most prevalent is role-playing games.

have fun reading do what u wanna do and have a nice day

 
  DECosmicDECosmic

Thank you everyone for your input. I'll post what I've come up/what I'm thinking in terms of a decision in a couple days. If anyone has anything else to add, now is the time.

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  DECosmicDECosmic

Okay so here's what I've come up with:

Regarding zero orb start, I've done some math in the last couple days regarding Faust costs and while I initially thought this would be a good idea, I don't think it will actually solve anything. There is simply too much orb gain and with the ability to disable and enable different levels of Faust at will, Dante would still be basically all Faust, even on SoS. So it looks like we'll have to go forward with just Faustless. I should note that ofc the current NG+ category will remain as the main NG+ and will allow Faust.

As far as the following categories:
-Glitchless
-S Rank
-No Damage
-Hell and Hell

These are the type of categories that I meant by "arbitrary." For DMC5 specifically, they don't actually add anything or change the run at a fundamental level, they are just slower for the sake of being slower and wanting to play a certain way. So, not gonna add these.

Tek and I were going to run All Orbs + Secret Missions (which could have fundamentally different routing), but we're both in the middle of optimizing our main categories atm so we decided against it, especially after no one else seemed interested.

So I'll add NG+ Faustless. PC and Console will be subcategories underneath the tab, and we'll have Human, DH, and SoS be the difficulties. Have fun, everyone. Please be sure that you run and work on this category though, or it won't be around forever. Not interested in having dead catas.

TymethiefTymethief, ArthurbotanisteArthurbotaniste and Darkhero_PalatinoDarkhero_Palatino like this. 
  Darkhero_PalatinoDarkhero_Palatino

Quick question:Is Dante Faustless bloody palace not an option or do you think it wouldn't change the interest?

 
  DECosmicDECosmic

I'm gonna add Faustless BP later today after work. I was tired and forgot to add it yesterday.

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