Is it fair to use gear no longer available, since it can give an advantage over new people that will never have the gear to compete against times set by gear that is currently not available permanently (if that makes sense).
If you can't tell from my 1:27 Dark Within run I am super salty about the existence of the helmet....
I certainly see how it can make ¤certain¤ Individual levels very difficult to compete against if you don't have the gear, however it also genuinely makes the game faster as a whole. This whole SRL helmet situation is in between a rock and a hard place, in my opinion. Theres a harsh tradeoff with either route that's chosen. Its either allowing equal opportunity and having the game be limited in the speed that it can be completed, or the game/ILs can be beaten at the current fastest speed but placing between a sleight and major disadvantage on the runners that don't have the gear.
Here's my proposed solution to this, none of it is set in stone or going to happen without a democratic desicion or anything:
Since the SRL helmet currently only affects ILs that both require sparrow driving AND have been run to the point where there is little to no margin for error. (e.g. The Dark Within) At the moment I'd say that the ILs that meet those two requirements are currently the minority on the IL leaderboard. However, that doesn't mean that with enough time and running that they won't make up the majority of the leaderboard.
My proposal is that runners should be able to appeal for the possibility of banning the SRL helmet (or any other currently one-time, time-gated gear) for specific ILs on a case by case basis. This can easily be done by editing that Individual Level's ruleset (the majority of which have none). To remain as fair to all runners and current record holders as possible, there would need to be a democratic decision, either by vote or mutual agreement between mods and runners of some kind, to ban something on a specific IL.
In my opinion, I feel that banning gear from ILs should not affect any categories in the Full-Game Leaderboard, as theres a significant time loss when not using the helmet in these runs. In full-game runs theres a much wider margin for error than in ILs and I feel that its more important to prioritize a faster run time over gear "fairness"in full game runs rather than ILs. The problem with this method is that IF an individual level does get the SRL/Gear ban, theres an unfortunate possibility that it'll "dethrone" one, or many, current runners and record holders, which I would certainly not feel really cool doing...
If that doesn't sit well with you, I also have a Plan B to offer, which is simple, just a big pain to do: We could add a new category/subcategory for all runs that specify whether or not SRL gear was used. Its clunky and a bitch to do, but its a possibility.
Either way, I'd love to hear any opinions/proposals. I'm not really "in-charge" here so this isn't going to happen unless people would be okay with it and stuff.
Username and I came up with a plan C, mainly his idea, and Like we have the pre 2.1 category we just add an SRL helmet category which can be merged if the perk ever becomes permanently available.
I fixed it. I added a new variable to the IL's you check when you are submitted a run weather you used SRL or No SRL.
Hope this compensates for the fact some people cant get gear.
I mean but it's still the same leaderboard? Like I meant it should be a whole separate category because the gear is completely unique and entirely unobtainable. It just feels extremely unfair considering only one runner is using it, if someone gets a 2:26 with the helmet I would literally have to become a robot to get the same time without it. I talked to Jxson about it as well since he's a new runner and he feels the same way. The current 2:59 Dark Beyond is now entirely unobtainable to us because the gear is completely unique.
I hate to be the guy that advocates this because it's faster and it is a speedrun and I would 100% prefer that everyone used it and it be the main category for use in runs. But anybody that got the game for Christmas or later can't join in on the community because now they have to compete with something they can't get nobody how hard they farm or lucky they get. It's literally the only piece of gear that is this broken for speedruns and it's completely unobtainable. Like if competitive PvP tournaments can ban certain weapons I.E. Thorn, I think we should be able to atleast be an entirely separate category for the helmet. (Although I would still prefer it be banned I can't be that huge of an ass)
So in short I think it's better to have it as it's own category like the Pre 2.1 category, with the potential to be merged if the gear becomes permanently available. I also believe that with the helmet all the categories can be merged because it speeds it up enough to where the sparrow slow down patch is negated.
Again I'm sorry to be so salty about this, but it has legitimately ruined the idea of running any pre taken king mission for me which sucks because those are my favorite missions to run. Because the idea that every mission that I run will be immediately worthless cause someone with the helm can immediately use my route and take it with less optimized movement and more mistakes doesn't make sense to me and ruins to idea of running this game at all.
I 100% agree with what Jukes said. It should have either its own category or just banned altogether (also my preference)
on a side note, There is a mission on the IL list (I can't recall the name) that was only playable via a bounty that was gotten from Petra (the mission where you start inside of phogoth's lair) that mission is no longer accessible as it only showed up when you had the bounty related to it, which is unobtainable now. So it should be removed from the leaderboards IMO
Edit¤ the mission was called Archon Slayer
There shouldn't be any sort of argument though, It gives an unfair advantage and it should be treated as such. I personally have no idea as to why it was even considered to be allowed.
It is literally impossible to get. It's not like it's a 1.0 Jap cartridge of ALttP or something that I can pay a sum of cash for and obtain in order to be able to compete competitively
At the very least put it as it's own category so that the leaderboards can be fair.
I totally get what you're saying jackie, I really do. However I feel like not having it is detrimental to the time of the game. I'm completely for fairness, and zecora has already made SRL a subcategory. That's the same thing as the pre-2.1 subcategory, just a new required variable in run submissions that say "Yes" or "No" SRL Gear. All runs that haven't selected a yes/no have been manually changed. The problem with this is that it "de-thrones" anyone who used SRL gear on the main page leaderboard. EVEN IF THEY HAVE A BETTER TIME THAN CURRENT NON-SRL RUNS
Which seems to take several of fish and scardrow's runs off the main leaderboard, to be replaced with jukes' times as main leaderboard records. How convenient. -_-
I'm fine with how it is now, earlier the SRL vs no SRL wasn't in its own sub-category, it was just a section next to the things like ingame time / class/ platform etc. which is the biggest issue I (and Jukes I'm sure) had, it wasn't separated earlier even after Zecora had made his post.
Another point to be made is that SRL helmet runs should not be on the main page IMO, they are impossible to beat (or even tie for that matter) If "dethroning" a run bothers you then you might as well just show the Pre 2.1 runs on the main page instead.
And your comment at the end of your last post was uncalled for. Jukes (and anybody else for that matter) worked for hours and days to get those records. Only for what? for them to not count for anything because of an unfair advantage? Pretty petty of you to single him out like that.
I'm really sorry for being a bad apple, honestly, but you are simply trying to justify having unfair runs on the main leaderboard just so that Jukes doesn't have the records anymore, which you blatantly stated at the end of your post.
Keep it fair. Nothing against Fish, Scardrow, or any of the very select few that have the helmet, but they can compete within the new sub-category, but not on the main leaderboard where they have an unfair advantage over 95%+ of people who want to run this game. (unless of course they submit runs that qualify for it).
Jackie, I've been over this with jukes for the past 3 days. You can call me petty, you can say I'm singling him out, fine whatever believe what you're gonna believe. But I'm not trying to justify anything for the purpose of hurting juke's records. Why the hell would anyone do that? Especially since I've been working with jukes on routing tons of solo and duo missions every day for the past few months? I don't own IL solo records, I have no hatred towards jukes. Over the past 3 days I've talked and argued with jukes about this topic and I'm genuinely 50/50 on this. I understand its unfair to those who joined the game now, I really do. However I feel very bad that fish, scardrow and any other runners that use SRL gear's faster times are going to be taking the backseat on the front page. Their time spent running levels is just as important as jukes, regardless of a stupid 2-4 second time save from a helmet that they received from being active during a 3-week-long event But if you want "fairness" then I think its totally fair to have both categories on the main page. Because excluding them would be unfair (oh the fuckin' irony)
Look, obviously we have differing opinions on what should be prioritized, and that's not a bad thing. My philosophy is time save over "fairness", at least in regards to the SRL helmet since its a teeny-tiny advantage. If there were a different scenario where a one-time piece of gear was more than a few seconds of gain, then I could see how unfair that is to those who didn't get it.
I'm not trying to be some sort of aggressor or anti-jukes or anti-fairness dude here, I'm just talking about my opinion. To be honest, I'd rather see the case-by-case basis ban that I proposed earlier than splitting this game into another over-complicated subcategory that makes it even more confusing for newcomers to join the community.
At this point, I'm so tired of arguing about all this. I'm just pissing people off and probably losing a run partner because of it. Ban it, don't ban it. Make categories, don't. I don't fucking care anymore.
Hey guys, here is my opinion on this SRL Gear.
The speedrun community is already almost dead in destiny if you split times it won't help the Speedrun Community , instead it'll collapse
I used some SRL gear that only gave me roughly 0.8 second per run, I did a 2:59 on the "Dark Beyond" with a 11 seconds lead compared to the 2nd and when I checked the main leaderboard I only see a 3:10, so I have to enter the actual mission and click on "SRL Gear YES" did you guys seriously made this ?
You can add a "SRL" badge to my runs if you want but removing my times from the main leaderboard is not fair at all
Everyone can have SRL gear if they really want to, if you don't already have SRL GEar it'll problably come back in december 2016 and if you absolulty want to have it now, you can borrow a friend account.
Having SRL Gear bring cool strategy/routes and more fun to each run, should you also split the times if people doesn't have a good sparrow or the right gear ?
I mean, what's the point of Speedrunning if I can't even use the fastest gear I have. It's not even a glitch or a exploit.
How fair is it, for people who have SRL Gear and invested times into those Speedruns ?
People saying "SRL Gear" gave you the WR or it's impossible to beat are just wrong, the helmet give something like 0.8second at the beginning, even in a run like The Dark Beyond it's the same.
I have a 2:59, you can add 0.8 to the time I could even get the same time if my 2:59 is 2:59 000 When I use my Sparrow after the 2nd ghost, If I had no SRL Gear I would just pre charge my Sparrow in the air and that's the exact same time.
You can always improve your time if you found the right strategy or if you improve your run mechanics
We should regroup this Speedrun community instead of splitting it.
The leaderboard is staying the way it is. The reason I added the SRL and NO SRL gear variable is so people can use the filter in the leaderboard to show only runs that use the helmet or don't use the helmet.
I timed the exact spawn delay, which is 0.950 for a run. Downside to having instant spawn is the direction you are facing, at the start getting the good direction is hard when you have a instant spawn, whereas the 0.950 second give you time to have the perfect direction.
When they nerfed the Sparrow in 2.1, that was totally legitimate to separate the Ranks because you could have a 5 to 15 Seconds differences.
But for a 0.950 sec difference it's just ridiculous.
plus whoever decided to make a sub-category to the leaderboards should change it back to the way it was since the gear variable made up for the fact that people won't be able to get the helmet. look at it like a fallout 3 run there is a glitch called speed cripple it saves a lot of time over the run but some people can't do it so they added a variable to the leaderboard where you check off weather you used speed cripple or not.
Zecora, all of my runs are out of the main leaderboard for one piece of gear who gave me 0.950sec. No one want to use a filter, especially not a spectator. If it stay that way, you'll lose many Speedrunners including me. (You obviously don't care)
Let's have the same boring routes for every missions and no originality, and obviously restrict the fun stuff and original route/strat like that :
http://imgur.com/3css7xO This route isn't even faster, but it's FUN.
Like I said, if it would of gave me more than 2 Seconds I wouldn't have minded. It's only 0.950 Seconds !!
