This is one of my favorite games. Best in the series. I don't have the skill to be competitive. I'm in awe of the runners at the top. You can understand that I don't want to see cheaters or blatantly inaccurate emulators.

• ePSXe is blatantly inaccurate and you can see in the emulator rules of other competitive games that it's not allowed. You shouldn't allow it either. Has nostalgia when I used it 20 years ago to play this game at full speed on my laptop - and that is all. I like the Tekken explanation. Not updated in years and devs edited the test suite wiki to change failed tests to passing. I noticed.
• DuckStation is great and all and you smartly require Seek Speedup: None. I think you should add a requirement to show Emulator settings. This stops easy mode cheating of playing at 50% and speeding back up in post.
• BizHawk is great and all but using is a red flag on a WR run given its TAS ability. You'll see some games require proof that an input file is not being played back. Just have to press the Toggle read-only hotkey defined in the Movie Hotkey section. Default key is Q.
• mednafen, OpenEmu and XEBRA (Real BIOS): So long as you're spelling out official emulators, you should add those.

If you agree the barrier to cheating should be raised, the clever counter argument is showing Emulator settings and "No movie active" reduces accessibly. A runner might forget, or claim to. Standard compromise is to require proof for competitive times only.

I'm not the Mayor McCheese or an elite athlete to define "competitive times". Could be discussed on a Discord. I think the lazy river explanation is: Within 1 minute of a WR. Show at beginning or end.

For a game that is dominated by PS2/3/4 Hardware

PS1 EMU Golds 4

PS2 Golds 5

PS3 Golds 2

PS4 Golds 4

PS1 Emu Silvers 6

PS2 8 Silvers

PS3 1 Silvers

PS4 0 Silvers

These are the counts for 1st and 2nd Place in this game. PS2 has the most Golds and Silvers. i'm not going to bother compiling 3rd or 4th place because the time differences are much longer then your 1 minute rule. Of 15 Total Categories Ps2 has over half of the Golds. For a PS1 game it seems like the best bet is a PS2 and not a native PS1. PS4 has the same amount of Golds as Ps1 Emulator.

The only PS1emu players all use Duckstation and I'm one of them. I don't appreciate the implication of being called a Cheater. The one of the players is also a Mod on the same team I'm on, including him there are 3 other PS1 Emulator users all on Duckstation. If this becomes a problem then we will do a rule change, until then this is a non-issue literally based on statistics. The game isn't the same as Tekken or CTR, ones a fighting game with everything mapped out and based on Frame times, the other is a racing game with exact turns timed down to the millisecond in every map. TM2 is a Fighting Car Combat game, where the biggest complaint ACROSS ALL VERSIONS is how the game drops inputs for special moves like Shield and Freeze.

Whoa, let's not construe my DuckStation request is a cheating accusation out of thin air. Is funny to the point of almost looking suspicious. I didn't notice you had runs. I watch Twisted Metal 2 Tournament and Tournament Co-Op. You aren't against higher proof standards when you replied on Twisted Metal Minute that you show DuckStation inputs and latency settings.

I said I wasn't qualified to define completive times. I don't believe listing top times by platform is applicable to emulator rules. Denying the lowest barriers to cheating is a best practice irrespective of how fast or slow emulators are.

Disregarding best practices from other competitive games from a different genre is beside the point. Crash Bandicoot still seems comparable to me. Real PS2 holds the top 20 slots in both categories but mods still ban ePSXe on top of lengthy DuckStation and BizHawk rules. I asked for 2.

You proved "literally with stats" that cheating on PS1 or PS1emu cannot be a problem because they're the slowest platforms and the only DuckStation runners are you and 3 others, one being a fellow mod. Here's my proof:

• As a mod, you can go to Settings -> Manage -> Runs and filter by Rejected. Can see 4 runs rejected 9 months ago on DuckStation for "Runner admitted in dm's illegal cheats were used". All WRs by your cheating mod friend @Xencryptous. Which cheats? @NoraMaclean, did anyone else see those DMs? I take it showing Enabled Cheats is unchecked will fly. DuckStation inputs not enough.
• Real PS1 run rejected for using the buffed machine gun cheat. No audio doesn't help. Would have been a Silver on Tournament: Medium at the time and #8 today. Still ahead of 8 other runs, 6 using a dominant platform.

Good of you to verify Xencryptous didn't cheat in his 6th place and 12th place runs last week. If you hadn't been so militant against doing anything or made it personal, I wouldn't have figured out how to use SRC's API to search for rejected runs to see if anyone got caught cheating.

Way to cause drama when you have not even submitted any runs. It is not like TM2 has a super competitive scene either. Bunch of competitive rules would might turn off people that would submit runs.

@NewSchoolBoxer So it wasn't that Xen cheated, he had a setting enabled for doing practice stuff and forgot to turn off cheats within the emu. (iirc, my memory sucks nowadays) Was something small that I didn't catch right away (that's on me). He dm'ed me very very shortly after submitting them letting me know what happened and we handled it. Nobody else saw the dm's though as it wasn't a big deal. Accidents happen.

While I understand what @AudiblySmiles is trying to get at (except for being supposedly accused of being a cheater, that's just nonsense), the times/amount of records are completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter who has what records on what port/emulator, because it absolutely can be a problem if someone knows what they are doing.

The simple fact that certain emulators can be abused via using TAS and such absolutely cannot be ignored, and it's good you brought it up, because in a game like this, it can be easy to miss if someone's using TAS tools or something nefarious. It absolutely can be a problem in the future, and it should be dealt with now before it is.

However, if someone wants to use a broken emulator, that's on them. I'm aware that epsxe is absolute garbage, but that's not a reason to ban it. Sure, it will be innacurate. Sure, it will look sound and play like shit. Is someone gonna get world record with it? I VERY highly doubt it. And if they did, now knowing this information, it will (should) be held to a much higher scrutiny, as emulator runs already are. Most if not all emulators are allowed for ease of access, but if something nefarious is found, then it's to be investigated. I personally don't see a reason to ban epsxe it for the sole reason of other communities do it either, because well... that's THEIR community. There's no set standard to speedrun on emulator. People should be allowed to run how they choose so long as rules are followed and mods pay attention. Bizhawk however, is very concerning, because of how easy it is to abuse, but tbf you can make a TAS out of pretty much whatever emulator you want with the right know-how.

I'm not around as a moderator anymore due to personal reasons, so I won't be able to help further with this other than giving my two-cents. but my personal recommendation is to hold emulator runs as a whole to a much higher scrutiny; Require inputs/emulation information on screen. This is the best way to deter cheaters without banning emulators. If it becomes a problem later, ban them.

@CoolHandMike They didn't cause any drama at all? They brought up a genuine concern. Having a run in the game doesn't matter. Rules are what deter cheaters and keeps things in check, doesn't matter if it deters people from running or not, mods don't make the rules for the runners convenience (nor should they ever), They do it to protect the leaderboard.

Showing inputs and Frame Times/Latency would be fine as a rule, but some emulators don't let you do that so do we ban those emulators to make it even harder for people with no money to run the game. Not everyone has a system that works well with Duckstation. We may as well just give people a warning to go buy a PS2 cause everything else is banned. It's not like there's a flood of people coming to play these games for speedrunning.

@NoraMaclean The reason I said I don't being called a cheater is because of the implication stated in the first paragraph "You can understand that I don't want to see cheaters or blatantly inaccurate emulators." And before you say well they don't mean you, well I use Duckstation and Duckstation was mentioned in this post. So you will have to excuse me for using what I learned in School for English, my first language. I also really don't think we need a second massive board rework for thought crimes is needed. I'd rather deal with a problem when it happens instead of preventing an issue that is a non-issue based on hard statistics. If current record statistics don't count as a good example of how much of a non-issue it is then nothing is a good defense. We allow people to run using the PC version which has better loading times out of the gate. If PS2, PC and Android Emulators is ok then I don't see the point in increasing the requirements to play on a board that is already struggling to get runs verified.

@AudiblySmiles

"Showing inputs and Frame Times/Latency would be fine as a rule, but some emulators don't let you do that so do we ban those emulators to make it even harder for people with no money to run the game."

This doesn't even make any sense? You don't need to ban an emulator because it doesn't show specific info, that's ridiculous. All you need is inputs and MAYBE to show some emu info if needed. Inputs on screen can be done with other programs easily.

"Not everyone has a system that works well with Duckstation."

This sentiment needs to stop at this point in time. Nearly every phone and laptop nowadays can run this game and many other emulators without issue. I understand that there are a select few that are just outright unable to afford it, but saying not everyone can afford it, is absolutely absurd.

"It's not like there's a flood of people coming to play these games for speedrunning."

As if it matters? All this should absolutely be dealt with, regardless if a games dead or not. (it's not but apparently to you it is)

"The reason I said I don't being called a cheater is because of the implication stated in the first paragraph "You can understand that I don't want to see cheaters or blatantly inaccurate emulators." And before you say well they don't mean you, well I use Duckstation and Duckstation was mentioned in this post. So you will have to excuse me for using what I learned in School for English, my first language."

I seriously lost brain cells reading this. Dude, NOBODY called you a cheater. Nobody implied you were a cheater. The person brought up a legit concern and your ego is SO touched by the word "cheater" that you had to jump the gun and assume you are being targeted. Stop it. Nobody cares what emulator you use, nobody's accusing you of cheating just because you and one or two others run on emu. The person's point is absolutely right when they say the barrier for emu needs to be raised, because it can be easily abused, even by you, (not that you would but I've seen top runners try and cheat too) and it's not a chance to take.

"I also really don't think we need a second massive board rework for thought crimes is needed.

What are you even on about? Nobody said anything about a board rework. It's adding rules in for emulator.

"I'd rather deal with a problem when it happens instead of preventing an issue that is a non-issue based on hard statistics."

This alone tells me you should NOT be a mod in any capacity. You should be dealing with issues BEFORE they happen if you are able to. This is one of those situations, and if you don't want to take it on, but instead argue and call it a non-issue when you are very clearly wrong, you should NOT be a moderator.

"If current record statistics don't count as a good example of how much of a non-issue it is then nothing is a good defense."

Current record statistics, once again, are IRRELEVANT.

"We allow people to run using the PC version which has better loading times out of the gate."

Your PC comment is random, pointless, and irrelevant. We are not talking about PC, this has nothing to do with it. We are talking about EMULATORS.

"If PS2, PC and Android Emulators is ok then I don't see the point in increasing the requirements to play on a board that is already struggling to get runs verified."

This doesn't even make sense. Emulators have always been "okay" the conversation here is to add a couple more requirements to protect the board from cheated emulator runs. Do you even know what the conversation is about? Or are you just wanting to argue, for the sake of arguing?

What the fuck? Dude what kind of moderator are you? You should NOT be deleting comments during a discussion. This proves my point even further YOU are NOT fit to be a mod.

You both clearly are emotionally overwhelmed and I would recommend this entire thread be nuked even further outside of the damage AudibleySmiles already caused.

Raven/Nova you should go. Like, take another one of your breaks because you've already done more than enough behind the scenes and in public.

Touching the boards and (temporarily) breaking records, getting into fights with god knows how many people behind the scenes, haphazardly coming back into the scene then leaving when you get overwhelmed and having done this on repeat for multiple years I think it's time to pack it up for longer than you ever have before and really go on a long hiatus. A self discovery journey. This cycle has to end. You may have a short term point that may be valid about whatever Mizuke/Smiles deleted, but long term this is a problem that you genuinely need to fix.

You came back, changed a bunch of the boards (while yes you meant well, the execution wasn't great), are in a fuss with Mizuke/Smiles plus now are writing god knows what on the forums saying things should be banned. None of this has been good for anyone especially you.

While Nova/Raven shouldn't go on a tear on the forums, sure, Mizuke/Smiles also shouldn't be burning shit down and just saying "tired of the drama" while having deleted the context because that makes them look bad and extension the entire moderation team related.

Y'all shouldn't be doing this whole thing in public in general because you're just causing a scene and making things worse because now various moderators are gonna have to weigh in and community members are gonna see this and get all excited and bent out of shape.

Discussions should be openly had on the forums, but not at the cost of decorum or people's personal mental health.

Patches you dated me for all of 2 months and saw me in a max of 2 servers, one of which YOU caused a shit ton of problems and if I remember right I was the one that backed you up when everyone thought you were wrong, so don't even start with me. You don't know half of what I'm going through, don't try to fucking pretend you do.

Idk where the hell you are getting I argue with a bunch of people behind the scenes, no tf I don't. As far as doing the boards, Read back everything. Not once did I say ban anything, I said I suggest adding in input display rules. At NO point did I say ban anything at all.

You are getting on me when I'm not even in the wrong. Sorry I'm not fucking having it. I said what I wanted to say already. I'm done giving a fuck, and I'm not holding back my words anymore for idiots like Mikuze that like to play victim when they're told they are wrong. And if you didn't want us doing this in public, why the fuck are you even responding publicly?

So, skipping past all the middle discussion, the agreed upon emulator list was created years ago and hasn't had as much thought put into it as it should. I've already before seeing this post started to think of what we really should be requiring from emulators. Pretty sure Duckstation is going to end up being the only one on the list as it's already the one commonly used, but I have to figure out what settings and what things need to be shown from the emulator during runs.

I've restored Noras post. I've made my point and do not deserve this. I tried to end it with two deleted comments and just say it was Drama but now you can see it's just drama. Nora now calls me fake disabled. I was robbed at gun point, almost taken hostage, assaulted with the weapon, fired a week later and homeless 6 months after. I have depression and PTSD, I hear fucking voices ya'll so excuse me if sometimes I read robotically typed words at literal face value. I don't know why ANYONE has to know but I'm telling you all right now. As for this post I was replying cause "I took it personally" I just happened to fit the original posts concerns and said I didn't like the implication. None of these posts were to give @NewSchoolBoxer hate or my ire or something. The clarification of not wanting to call me a cheater would have been plenty good enough for me and I would have just moved on. I provided statistics which were disregarded, I said that if the issue arises of someone cheating with Bizhawk or something would get taken care of quickly and this was disregarded too. I said that showing Latency and Inputs would be a fine rule change, this was also disregarded. I said I didn't like that what was originally said implied that me or other Ps1emu users are cheating in which rejected runs were brought up to accuse Xen of cheating cause he said he had cheats on, these are in game cheats that are left on which can't be shown in emulator settings, he admitted to it cause it was an accident and the run was rejected but I'm just protecting my buddies is what I was told. I brought up TM2 PC because this board is for Twisted Metal 2 World Tour, the concern is load times and cheating so talking about the PC version of the game is related to this conversation. If I'm emotionally unstable for not wanting this to happen then I'll let Nora speak for themselves to show the difference in how we are acting.

@JayTheIdiot Literally all I was trying to say to begin with. It needs to be looked at, and I suggested making specific rules accordingly if need be. I wasn't trying to start shit with anyone at all and I'm sorry for all this, but Mizuke did nothing but give ridiculous responses instead of talking about the issue and what could be done, it's not a non-issue as he states.

@AudiblySmiles I went off on you a bit too hard and for that I'm sorry. That wasn't right. But you need to stop and think about your responses before making them (yes I know I need to take my own advice) because all it looked like you were doing TO ME was dismissing the issue as a whole, which I felt was wrong. Idk what you go through outside of this, and I have no place or right to say anything on that. We all have our shit. I shouldn't have said what I said and I'm sorry. Being mad is not an excuse.

The ONLY reason I'm even here saying anything is because I was tagged. I only wanted to give my two-cents and I let myself escalate and I'm sorry. But, my opinion on the original issue stands; this is not a non-issue, and needs to be dealt with before it is a real issue. Not dismissed based on statistics on who runs, which isn't relevant.

Again everything I said was disregarded. It seems we will probably just be accepting Duckstation anyway. Could literally just make "Show Emulator Speed" a rule and then we'd know if someone is playing at 50%. Enough said easy fix, non fucking issue.

Also I am now motivated by this post to get an Original PS2 to put an SSD in an load the game directly to the console. This would allowed in the rules, same with PS3.

@AudiblySmiles "Could literally just make "Show Emulator Speed" a rule and then we'd know if someone is playing at 50%."

This is exactly what you could have said to keep the discussion going, but instead you derailed it by thinking that person accused you of cheating, and pointing out statistics that literally do not matter. (I'm not trying to keep it going please don't take it that way)

Nothing of what you said was disregarded, they just weren't good responses to the issue at hand. This right here what you just said, is a good suggestion.

"Also I am now motivated by this post to get an Original PS2 to put an SSD in an load the game directly to the console"

Bad idea. Runs like shit from what I've tested with it (I have a few modded ps2's)