Since the split of Any% TSA and Any% (banning TSA), I've done several Any% runs now (with a few successes). I've tried a new strategy (new for me): Demon Fiend with Pyre of Savagery, which is very similar to the TSA strat with the built in Sweep (using Trample instead) and auto-scaling with the Pyre. Here are my thoughts on the split:

Pros:

-It is a bit harder to keep DF alive compared to slapping Organ Harvester on TSA, which means each run requires finding 1 or 2 of a few different things to keep him alive. This does make runs a little bit unique to each other (though not too much in my experience).

-There's a little bit more thought and consideration to be had at Steel shops and Arms shops, since you're wanting Quick, Multistrike, and probably some way of keeping DF alive (another unit). There are a couple options for each (though Multistrike can be tougher), instead of literally just looking for 2x Multistrike on TSA and OH.

Cons:

-The runs still felt similar to a TSA run, without too much difference in average time (I don't have a huge pool of data to base that on though).

-I almost felt like I had to reset if Dominion is my final boss, as he requires so much armor to keep DF alive. I did get a good run with him, but there were several failed runs because of him. This adds one more reason to reset when finding a run start, which I don't really care for, but isn't a huge deal since it takes a second or 2.

-It feels like I'm just hoping to see Quick early, or else I'm going to die pretty quickly (and I'm wasting precious time watching the enemies attack me first).

-It still feels like a single strategy is going to dominate the leaderboards.

All that being said, I really don't know if having 2 Any% categories is necessary, nor do I actually think we need a category for each clan. With both Lazarus and Hellhorned, they essentially have everything you need to win within their own clan, with some clans offering a boost here and there. So it feels like every run, despite the clans used, will be the same thing with only slight differences.

Being able to see who can get the best overall time, no matter which clan or unit they use, would be my preference. I know that differs a lot from the MT1 leaderboard, but I don't see that as a bad thing, given how we have double the clans now. It might also make the leaderboard look a little less empty. However, that change isn't necessarily the main point of this post, just another thought when talking about Any% as a whole.

I'd be happy to hear other's thoughts on having separate leaderboards for each clan and on the split of TSA and no-TSA. Like I said, I don't have a huge amount of data yet, but these are just my experiences from running both types of Any% several times, and the cons seem to outweigh the pros by just a bit.

Splitting TSA to a separate category feels a little strange to me, in that there will just be a second best unit/strategy that would dominate non-TSA category (Most likely demon fiend as you've mentioned). Demon Fiend runs would likely add some more variability/interactivity, but not sure how much.

I also agree separate primary clan categories don't offer much of a difference in how runs work when you can pick any secondary.

I don't mean to crap on previous ideas for categories, It seems difficult to create constraints for interesting runs based on how the game is setup, and I don't have much for better ideas. I wonder if Covenant 10 Titans runs would be more interactive?

The idea of separate clan categories makes sense when setting up originally. However, now that I’ve run all the clans and watched several runs, it feels like the same run each time.

I’ve also submitted a Demon Fiend run that beats my best TSA run, utilizing some Melee Weakness from Banished. It’s pretty interesting thinking of a strategy that beats all other strategies.

With that thought, I would love a single separate category for C10T! I mainly play C10T random/random/random, but playing for speed would be a new twist.

to add to this, just did a Laz/Legion run that kinda became a Dante run lol, Dante might need their own leaderboard

(though embarassingly I still nearly capsized because I'm not really taking this that seriously lol, am mostly just here to fill the leaderboard)

With how uncommonly you'll see Dante in a run (especially if you skip Celestial Alcoves to save time), I don't think we'd need another category for him. After my Banished/Hellhorned record (6:12), I really think having a single Any% that allows any combo of clans and units would be ideal. If not that, my second vote would be how it was before with Any% allowing anything, but being divided by primary clan.

TSA might be the best overall (I don't have enough runs to prove one way or another), but Demon Fiend could just as easily beat him given the right tools. Even if TSA or DF come out to be clear winners, banning either of them seems a bit silly to me. There's always going to be a meta in speedrunning, and that's perfectly fine.

Sorry I'm a bit late to this conversation. I was gone for 2 weeks when this discussion happened and it got lost in my notifications and didn't realize it until Kr33d brought it to my attention.

Okay, I think the best course of action might be to just scratch the any% category and just make all the runs based on the main unit used. We could have it where all current submitted runs can be moved around to if they mainly use TSA we move all runs to Lazarus, and then all future runs have to have Lazarus as the primary clan to be able to use TSA for their single clan attempts (this probably wouldn't affect All Clan attempts as of right now, but we can cross that bridge at a later date). Then the same thing for Demon Fiend being only allowed for Hellhorned, and Shadowsiege for Umbra, etc.

As for Dante, would he ever really be a viable option? I guess I never really ever used him casually, and have never used him or thought about him as an option for speedruns of this game. I guess if we really wanted, could replace the any% TSA category with Dante getting his own category (we'll probably be getting rid of any% TSA regardless).

I support doing a main unit based Any%. That’s not a bad idea. As long as those restrictions of “main clan” are only for full game runs. With Any%, having that rule would be very restrictive and a lot less fun.

As for unit categories though, obviously TSA and DF, perhaps Shadowseige, but since you can’t start with him it’d be difficult to make a run with him. Same as Dante or other rare units. However, I could see maybe something for the units with Sweep, though without starting Quick (like TSA) they are at a disadvantage. Perhaps just a 3rd catchall category of Any% where DF and TSA are not allowed. I don’t know really.