IndrekIndrek
(edited: )

Every time I run P1 sorc I get reminded of the broken timing method system. Recently I did some runs and that feeling is still there.

IGT favors one particular setup way too much. "The Best" Jail setup gets even better in IGT. Here are two runs:

Both runs get the leveling setup at level 5 (9:30 RTA).
• First run gets level 18 at 31:45 (RTA) 27:48 (IGT)
• "The Best" setup level 18 at 31:45 (RTA) 26:00 (IGT)

57:33 (IGT) is faster than 56:35 (IGT) run, but the time doesn't reflect it well. I just got an extra 2 minutes of time save in the Jail for doing nothing.

"The Best" setup gets almost a 2 minute head start in IGT and there's nothing other setups can do to compete with that in IGT. RTA ends up much more balanced because the best setup gets longer load times which makes it more fair compared to other setups.

Basically in RTA all 5 setups are competitive, but in IGT only one works.

Inv1veInv1ve and Daz86Daz86 like this. 
  Daz86Daz86

Fishing for the jail setup is hard enough, whats one more condition? haha

We've been told the benefits of IGT so if it were to be taken away there could be scrutiny for why it was implemented in the first place.

 
  IndrekIndrek
(edited: )

Fishing for the 5 Jail setups is 1 in 50. Fishing for the best IGT setup is 1 in 250. Anyway the entire point of converting to IGT at the time was to make it more fair, but the more runs we see in P1 sorc category the more I realize that it does the opposite. RTA much more fair compared to the IGT category. IGT failed to do what it was meant to do.

I know TCP/IP loading isn't included in IGT for map reroll abuse, but when it comes to actual timesave then it doesn't make as big of a difference (for p1 sorc at least). On these two example runs if TCP/IP loading would pause the timer then it would've only saved 30 seconds.

I don't mind the IGT category, but RTA should be the default for D2. Also IGT pausing during TCP/IP load would make the category much more accessible. IGT at its current state doesn't solve anything.

I'm not expecting anything to change, just wanted to get it out of me.

Daz86Daz86 likes this. 
  Bender_Bender_

Within the jail, it favors the best setup yes. Overall it kind of creates fairness for areas in my opinion.

For example: Dark Elder/BB/Fireeye/Tristram
Far Oasis has almost instant exit times, while Palace and Lost City takes like 3s extra. Tristram you can even fullclear and still get 5+ seconds exit time

 
  327327

I agree with the thesis about reducing variations with IGT. Double jail setup is faster with RTA, but slower with IGT. At the same time, I don't see a way to change anything. Canceling IGT will only lead to more negativity and misunderstanding.

 
  MekalbMekalb

It’s odd how it ended up exacerbating the very thing it was meant to mitigate However, I’ve been under the impression that RTA and IGT are both their own categories, most people just seem to favor IGT more for some reason. On the website you can sort the leaderboard by RTA and it’ll reassign new rankings (gold/silver/bronze) trophies for the two (I think?) categories where there are two different runs with one faster IGT and the other RTA.
I’m not sure how or if it’s worth changing the system at this point, both kind of have their strengths and meaningfulness. However, it might be worth exploring allowing for multiple runs to be submitted to the same category. Like when Indrek got the 2 or 3 jail setup, he annihilated the RTA record, IIRC, but it didn’t beat the IGT or beat it by much, which is because IGT can be abused.

 
  327327

1-02-45 RTA->1-02-00 IGT
1-02-39 RTA -> 56-35 IGT
thats funny

 
  IndrekIndrek
(edited: )

The biggest issue I see is that if normal sorc can abuse 6 minutes of timesave with IGT then it's going to spread easily into longer categories. Especially hell. There will be some dumb IGT abuse eventually in hell runs.

The example 327 pointed out is a good one:
1-02-45 RTA->1-02-00 IGT
1-02-39 RTA -> 56-35 IGT

In hell runs it's going to be even more dramatic. Instead of improvising a leveling route you must use leveling that's optimal for IGT or you're out of competition.

 
  RamBlorRamBlor

RTA will always be the one true timer no matter if the leaderboards give preference to it or not, at least for normal runs. IGT combined with current rules on TCP/IP is just a big no no

 
  Daz86Daz86
(edited: )

https://www.speedrun.com/d2lod/thread/xtcwb

Just a reminder if anyone wants to relive the beginning of the end haha.

Its actually pretty interesting reading thru this again and seeing peoples reasons for and against -ns, rta and igt.

The discussion however was about 3am my time and i was lying in a hospital bed i couldnt listen in. I only caught the last half hour and the mood had settled but i got the vibe the loudest voices that day are what prevailed, not the feelings of the community as a whole. like i said tho i wasnt there so i cant really speculate, just a vibe.

 
  blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing

In-game time, or Time Without Loads was implemented because we collectively decided -ns was a bad idea, removing the enjoyment of playing and watching the game for many runners and fans of Diablo, and in the same breath we realized that save/quit times were very inconsistent between people's individual installs of diablo 2 - some people consistently had better save/quit times than others, and this was decidedly not fair to runners who had the slower load times and therefor could not effectively utilize the strats other runners were using to get faster times

As for comparing RTA to IGT times from one run to another, the whole purpose of IGT across speedruns as a whole is to see what the time would look like if you only consider segments of time that gameplay is able to happen. If you use a strat that makes you encounter more loading screens, of course there's going to be a larger difference between RTA/IGT than in a run that uses strats where you save/quit less. I'm not sure what exactly is the purpose of comparing this is.

Regarding TCP/IP load times to not be removed, this was decided because the majority felt that removing tcp/ip loading would be far too beneficial and we should leave it in as a sort of "price to pay" for using the strat.

We could discuss removing TCP/IP loads from IGT again and see where the majority of runners stand on it

Personally, I always thought it was weird that it was decided that an explicit loading screen was to remain in the "without loads" time, but I was not present for that particular discussion due to work. I've played a healthy handful of sorc jail grinds and my vote would definitely be that removing TCP/IP loads would make it far more enjoyable to grind, and remove any "picky choosy" of load time removal

 
  FromeXoFromeXo

I might be mistaken, but i thought that TCP/IP loading time was removed, except for the part where a local server starts?

 
  IndrekIndrek
(edited: )

I think my point mainly is that IGT has similar unfairness issues. In the end there is no fair timing method for D2. I enjoyed running RTA more and dislike running with IGT strats in mind.

It's only an issue for p1 sorc, but since the fix for it invloves all other categories too it's annoying.

Anyway I support pausing IGT during TCP/IP. It would make sense and I hate that it doesn't pause during that part.

Also we didn't really get a chance to see if RTA is unfair with Jail leveling once -ns got banned. People assumed it is, but looking at RTA times now I'd say RTA is much more fair with -ns banned compared to IGT.

 
  327327
(edited: )

Pause IGT during TCP/IP make act 3 to casino roll, you just need to find WP at spiders, and roll until it will be an exit to flayer. Same tricks work at act 5 with wp Frozen Tundra WP, if you take it at 1st line, reroll and get at last line you will save about 30 seconds. For normal non sorc run advance will be huge. Rules shouldnt be creat for only sorc, if you make sorc rolling "more enjoyble (not sure how, you still have to w8 rerolls in real time, but your imagination timer will looks better ?)" you still should remember about other classes.

 
  IndrekIndrek

I agree that IGT is a casino roll, but it already is. Where's the line? Why is saving 2 minutes in the Jungle with IGT worse than saving 2 minutes in IGT in the Jail?

 
  327327
(edited: )

Its pretty the same situation, when IGT was added. It was better not to change anything. IGT just make new problems, if we will change TCP/IP it will happend again, only new problems. I dont see this happy people, who banned -ns into the jail, but I could see sorc p1 is slow dies. After this change same could happend with other classes. People who grind 100-200-500 hours will not happy looking how they runs will be beaten by casino strats.

IndrekIndrek likes this. 
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