Diablo II: Lord of Destruction Forum  /  Issues with current timing method setup
  IndrekIndrek
(edited: )

Speedrun.com was not built to support (at least not entirely) the hacky timing method solution we have going on here.

First issue is that RTA submissions get denied, but when you make a submission it's set as default. This also causes a problem I've noticed where verifiers don't notice and this happens: https://www.speedrun.com/d2lod/run/zxdr018y IGT run is submitted as RTA even though it's IGT and RTA submissions aren't allowed. Problems like this should be fixed early if we care about the data.

Second issue is that API doesn't list time without loads. If this was resolved we could nicely combine speedrun.com and diablo.run data. Otherwise we can't pull RTA/IGT separately since they're all the same in API.

For example here's my 48 minute sorc run https://www.speedrun.com/api/v1/runs/me683xqz and it has RTA set to 48 mins, but it's actually the IGT. API lists all IGT as "null".

API data should be cleaned up and always considered in future rule changes. We'll never be able to clean up the categories or history page if the data is broken inside.

91RelaX91RelaX likes this. 
  Teo-Teo-
(edited: )

Topic 1) Denied / queue'd runs due to IGT / RTA issues will be discussed during this weekend (not sure when we can manage to get together for this...

Topic 2) If we make either timing method a default in the variable all the runs that are the set default will be hidden from the leaderboards:
https://imgur.com/JIMNnJq
https://imgur.com/RTvrA1M

The way we set it up is the reason for your problem with the API:
The API only knows "Real Time" and "Ingame-Time" to provide text boxes to punch in your time. These are the only timing methods you can actively have and read out.
This is completely independent of the Tag "IGT / w/o loads" that we added as a Variable - This does not add new fields for submitting the time however. Therefor it can not give IGT the value.

This was explained during the last meeting we had. Visually it looks better but from an API standpoint I see how that is problematic. But I mean... I did ask if an indipendent Website / diablo.run would be an option to transfer over entirely... This was shut down really hard by everyone...

 
  IndrekIndrek

Was there a reason not doing it this way? https://i.imgur.com/4xGs7mP.png

 
  Teo-Teo-
(edited: )

yes
that and if you show both timing methods you get a completely scrambled leaderboard due to the lack of times in one of the methods

 
  IndrekIndrek

What was the reason?

There are lack of times in one of the leaderboards because they really don't exist. It would be a much more accurate leaderboard. For example https://www.speedrun.com/gtavc Also get a much faster way of sorting the runs by clicking time without loads or time with loads. Fixes the API problem as well.

 
  Teo-Teo-
(edited: )

The reason was and still is this result how it would look:
https://i.imgur.com/9VpU1Lx.png

Left side -> Default IGT
Right side -> Default RTA

And no, there is no option to say "Default is the time that is set or similar to "mix" them together.

Also, people didn't like having 2 columns with times displayed - It makes the leaderboards confusing to read.

Excuse the terrible paint job - Dont wanna mess up the leaderboard more by trying to visualize again there...

 
  Teo-Teo-
(edited: )

Adding the RTA times for those runs that only have submitted IGT atm and make RTA the Default would be one option, however that probably (I didn't check this yet) would make a mess of the IGT order due to the inconsistent save and quit hang times.

Here is an example from your vice city link:
https://i.imgur.com/nUUPTzd.jpg
12th and 13th would change places if the time "without loads" would count as default

 
  IndrekIndrek
(edited: )

To me the Vice City style leaderboard still seems more fair and better understandable. I think it's a mistake that current runs do not have RTA listed in their data. It's going to be impossible to fix this issue if speedrun.com is going to support this hacky setup in the future. The longer it stays like this the more data will need to be fixed in the future.

Currently users don't even submit their RTA at all so how are we going to get that data. Run by run?

If RTA is required for the run to be submitted then that RTA data should be referenced in speedrun.com data anyway.

MekalbMekalb likes this. 
  Bender_Bender_
(edited: )

I think getting the RTA data in wouldnt be that big of a deal. The most active runners could help by doing their own and then it wouldnt be that big of an effort (since all should have a 2nd timer anyway).

The bigger issue in my opinion is that we sort by igt as default, so our leaderboards would have the left example of teo as the default look and we cant simply produce the IGT data for the RTA runs.
We would have the data to sort by RTA, but that would also be a bit strange since we added IGT to create fairness for the runs that S+Q a lot.

I agree that the dataproblem is a problem that won`t get smaller, but as far as I see it our current setup creates the best look for the speedrun.com leaderboard, regarding the options we have.

I dont think 2 timercolumns is an issue or confusing, but I feel like if we do that, we need to sort by RTA, which creates some issues in itself. I guess its only really the sorc leaderboard where it would matter, so maybe still do it?

Problems with that:
- we have things in the RTA that isnt allowed anymore (like the -ns run from Slimo), which is another issue but related
- it would switch the order on the sorc leaderboard. I`m not a fan of changes that would dethrone a current WR, valid by the rules we made, to replace it with a run that uses stuff we dont allow anymore. (basically i dont want to dethrone a WR on the discussion table at all)

 
  IndrekIndrek
(edited: )

Is it a problem in any other category besides p1 normal sorc?

Edit: I can't really find any other category where it would matter as well besides p1 sorc.

Also didn't we already dethrone Slimo wr anyway when we converted to IGT. I guess we scam either way.

 
  Bender_Bender_

I think i would loose norm sc sin WR to Meow by 1 second, but thats fine with me. Kano would loose norm HC druid to Teo

The thing is, if we sort by RTA again, Slimos run would be first again right? We banned -ns and put IGT in to create fairness there. Thing is, if you want to be sorted in as Nr1, you would have to beat Slimo without the benefit of -ns or IGT, which is probably a 54-55 IGT

 
  MekalbMekalb
(edited: )

I've memed about this before - Kano's run is 4th fastest RTA. We would be back to watching Kano do HC runs, what a wonderful problem to have! Kappa

The sorc leaderboard will be tragic though... But, that is the leaderboard that sort of started all of this anyway (and the only real meaningful IGT leaderboard). Whatever we decide, it's going to be ugly. #SCAM

Edit: I would think my preference is to have both times posted on the website. I'm not familiar with API stuff, so I don't really understand the issue behind that. But if it is possible, I think I'm okay with sorting by either RTA or IGT. I don't see it an issue populating these RTA for maybe like top 10 of every leaderboard, shouldn't take much time.

Inv1veInv1ve likes this. 
  IndrekIndrek

I don't think it's worth messing up all other categories just because of p1 sorc. IGT never created fairness in p1 sorc which it was supposed to do. Beating Slimo -ns with IGT is not difficult, because once you get a Jail setup you already have a 3 minute head start. Had much more fun trying to beat it in -ns as well. I know 327 also enjoyed -ns.

IGT didn't make p1 sorc fair and just made all other categories unnecessarily more convoluted.

Not sure how to handle the -ns run. Slimo won the category with -ns. I'm personally fine with it just winning.

 
  327327
(edited: )

Oh, my favorite topic has become relevant again.

Well, let's remember again.

After Slimo got WR with -ns, the community was faced with the question of what to do next. At that time, the top 4 sorc p1 consisted of Slimo, Indrek, Teo and me (BokserKabaty was in 5th place, but he was not so active, I may not be correct in this case). Me, Slimo and Indrek believed that -ns should remain and for a fair definition of WR the rules cannot be changed. Teo was against -ns, but he was deciding how to vote.

Teo decided that those who have at least 1 run on the site should vote, that is, people who do not possess sufficient qualifications in advance, and who do not even have a close idea of ​​what a run on WR is. I can't say for sure why Teo decided to ask the guys with 3 hours druid normal runs how Indrek and I should continue to compete, but I can only assume that Teo really wanted to win the argument.

My judgments are confirmed by the fact that in personal conversation Teo lied to me about the form of voting, saying that I could vote for the next day and did not consider it important to inform me that in order to vote I must be present on the discord. Of course, before the start of the vote, none of the modders told me about this lie. On the other side guys with 3 hours druid normal runs were notified and the voting was successful. I can only congratulate Teo, he won this dispute against 3 top runners on sorc out of 4.

Well, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, I took a 2-month pause, then measured the new rules, spent 200 hours and took WR. Note that if I spent these 200 hours on runs with-ns I would beat Slimo's time. But I ran with the sound on, because the community decided so. And now you are proposing to cancel everything, because suddenly Teo's vote made everything worse.

What is my opinion? As I understood for a long time, everyone here doesn't care about my opinion, I just, as always, want you to look at yourself from the outside.

Inv1veInv1ve, muffineatermuffineater and IndrekIndrek like this. 
  Bender_Bender_

"After Slimo got WR with -ns, the community was faced with the question of what to do next. At that time, the top 4 sorc p1 consisted of Slimo, Indrek, Teo and me (BokserKabaty was in 5th place, but he was not so active, I may not be correct in this case). Me, Slimo and Indrek believed that -ns should remain and for a fair definition of WR the rules cannot be changed. Teo was against -ns, but he was deciding how to vote."

and

"Also didn't we already dethrone Slimo wr anyway when we converted to IGT. I guess we scam either way."

First of all, using -ns was a modification of the game, giving you a clear advantage over someone that doesnt modify his game like that. Yes, you three were fine with it, but a lot of us would rather quit than play -ns.

You guys didnt ask if thats fine as far as i remember, you just did it. In my opinion these runs should not have been allowed in the first place. We banned ns and left the runs there, because we replaced it by a stronger tool - IGT. Which now gives us trouble due to site limitations.

I agree that a lot of people voted who should not have, but honestly i miss these "dictatorship" days I keep hearing about at this point. The state we are in now all started with the -ns stuff.
People came up with "what about -act5?" which lead into our overbloated rulesheet since common sense doesnt seem to get applied anymore.

As I said above, I dont want to dethrone a WR at the discussiontable.

 
  IndrekIndrek
(edited: )

We did ask if -ns is okay and assumed it is after the run got verified by Teo.

Edit: Oh yeah, but to be fair Teo didn't notice that the run used -ns (at least that's what he said in my chat when I asked about why he verified it).

 
  327327

"Yes, you three were fine with it, but a lot of us would rather quit than play -ns".

So now p1 sorc is dead category, you won, lot of us quit.

"First of all, using -ns was a modification of the game, giving you a clear advantage over someone that doesnt modify his game like that".

And now everyone got "clear advantage" over RTA times, for no reason.

 
  Bender_Bender_

Another question is if he was even aware how impactful ns was in this heavy reset strat.

I got a somewhat awkward workaround idea: 7 Categories p1/x/8 any%, normal+hell (like indrek proposed over here: https://www.speedrun.com/d2lod/thread/pl3l2 ) and normal any% which would be the sorc leaderboard. The way I understand it you can apply different rules to these, so we could have IGT+RTA on the any%, sort any% by IGT, and forget about IGT on all other boards (if thats what the community wants)

 
  muffineatermuffineater

@BenderBender i quite like the idea of splitting rules based basically around sorc and non sorc categories

 
  WafuWafu

Just wanna mention one thing. Variables are likely not ever going to be removed, because they clearly are important and many games depend on them, so speedrun.com will probably keep supporting this "hacky" way. RTA is something that is possible to retrieve, so I don't feel like that's an issue, if you get people to help you with that, it could be done. Or really just the runners of those runs. Those runs are already valid, so you only check start, end and that's it.

What I feel like is being a bit ignored here is that these things could be much easier if speedrun.com had better tools for managing masses of runs. I'm not even surprised that mods didn't want to separate the timings. The API is kinda lacking (and poorly designed) and I'm hoping for a full rework and changes in terms of managing leaderboards in general.

 
Latest News
View all
No news
Recent Threads
View all
Thread Author
History of 8 Man runs - help wanted
Last post
BKSilv3rBKSilv3r
1 replies
8man leaderboard
Last post
IndrekIndrek
1 replies
Hell Barbarian Guide
Last post
blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing
7 replies
killing fire immune with fissure?
Last post
sanzeausanzeau
3 replies
LFM - Speedrun Group
Last post
clownbabydragonclownbabydragon
1 replies