Diablo II: Lord of Destruction Forum  /  3 months since the rules changed - looking for feedback
  IndrekIndrek
(edited: )

Happened to visit speedrun.com and noticed lack of fresh Diablo runs. Only one sorceress run in the past 2 months and overall less activity. Is it because of the rule changes or why have you guys been running less?

I guess I'll start with why I stopped running. It's mostly due to classic. I don't agree with the ban of it and it made me lose interest.

I was also unhappy about old runs not getting retimed. I spent a month in Jail grinding out the run. After rule changes I was able to beat it in couple days just because of in-game timer. For me the magic was gone after that.

Nothing wrong with in-game timer, but I think grandfathered runs should've been treated better.

Are you guys happy with the rule changes? Would you like to see anything changed after seeing them in action for 3 months?

 
  KanoKano
(edited: )

It seems like a mix between Jail + Rule Changes had a negative impact overall.

Personally I'm happy with the addition/switch to IGT, there will be a 'new meta' around reloading for shrines, minor timesaves, etc. but a lot of this was commonplace in older runs too and if they get retimed then there's no issues there.

Banning of -ns is still worth it in my eyes, because most of the people who run stream their runs and for me sound is crucial for enjoyment when playing this game and IGT kind of works as the replacement for -ns anyway.

I would've like to have seen old runs retimed to the best of their ability, even if the retimed IGT result was slightly slower to be 100% safe, but I can see there being problems with that because it technically wouldn't be 100% accurate - I still think it's worth considering for the top 5 runs per class/category but we don't have the tools or very active mods (which is also a problem here)

Back when the vote happened I did vote against classic because I was persuaded by some of the arguments made there, but when I think about classic vs. TCP/IP I wonder to myself why did we ban something that is technically allowed within the singleplayer game, but allow something that is only accessible through mutliplayer? Not only that but speedrunning should be about achieving the fastest times within the limitations of the singleplayer game and classic is within that. I would also consider banning TCP/IP and while I know the Sorceress run would become a lot more grindy, that is the next step for beating the current WR and that's what the game should be about: trying to get the fastest time, not a fast time.

I believe runs with -ns shouldn't have been grandfathered in or they should've been made obsolete if that's an option.

Also I want to make a note that there's been a distinct lack of activity from the mods here, this isn't an attack or anything and I understand that people get busy during points of their life but it's probably worth considering new people to add to the team. It's taking weeks for runs to be verified and there's no motivation around retiming runs or fixing some of the issues that remain on this leaderboard.

Lastly I want to say that the resources for this game definitely need a fresh update and with the help of some others I'm slowly working on getting a guide out there to help new runners and casual runners take the next step into understanding more about Diablo II speedruns

 
  LaVLaV

I think banning classic was a mistake, but the majority of people wanted it.

I believe the switch to having the timing method as variable rather than using the sites feature of having multiple timing methods (a few weeks after the initial change) was a very good change.

Retiming old runs would have been a huge time sink that none of us have time for. Who has the time to retime 1600 runs?

I still believe grandfathering the old runs is the right thing to do. I don't just want to delete/hide 7ish years of progress that was being made in this game.

As for mod activity I can only speak for myself: I wrote my thesis, graduated and started working full time this year. I just don't have time time I had before.
We also don't have anybody willing to help out with moderation. In the past we've had people only verify their own runs or people who ended up not having time to really do much as well.
At the same time all that seems to happen is people harassing us. It's a very unthankful job at the moment and that does not help with motivating us to spend our evenings or weekends doing a whole lot. I suppose it also does not help motivating other people to pick up the role as moderator.

 
  Teo-Teo-
(edited: )

My opinions here:

- Banning classic was pretty much a vote that only became so clear because of slimos reaction to the initial "voting behaviour". I am happy to allow it again since it is an ingame feature of Diablo II: Lord of Destruction.

- I think over all the use of IGT vs -ns still makes sense. The recent allegation towards one of the WR's only stresses this point even more. While initially not really being a reason for using IGT, I have realized that having an active IGT and RTA timers on the screen will make (future) spliced runs a lot harder and a lot easier to spot.
I want to actually stress this point a lot here. I think having both timers on the screen will always stay the way to go.

On that note - Fuzziboy and myself are trying to figure out a way to have a recording at the end of the stream that only has Ingame-Sound while the stream itself still has (for example: copyright music / singing). I hope this will bring some people back that have stopped speedrunning for this reason alone.

- About retiming runs: Yes, there are 1700+ Runs now on the d2 leaderboards. I suppose only the PBs would technically need readjusting to fix the leaderboards entirely towars the IGTs. This would still leave us with probably around 400+ Runs. This is not a task that we can manage manually.
If some of you programming gurus can figure out a way to properly and accurately retime those runs, I would be willing to adjust them.
But: I think this currently is only a problem for runs that use some extended lvling time. From what I have seen so far, completed Runs Assassins only have a 15-20 second gap between IGT and RTA in normal and maybe around 2-3 minutes on a hell run.

On the note of moderation:
Same as LaV, I have finished my apprenticeship at my company and started a full time job there. In addition to that I am doing a further education as state-certified business manager, potentioally with a Bachelors degree at the end. This does not leave me with a lot of time, that I also want to use to have fun and not go through a potentioally longer verification process.

Lastely:
I have to agree, that we as moderators get a lot of shit. There is very few people that actually say "Thank you for spending your free time for us". And there are people that straight up attack me through discord messages or even go to super moderators of speedrun.com and talk badly about us there.

To my knowledge, only Fuzziboy (as a non speedrunner) has offered to help out in the verification process. Other then that most, that have had the rights to verify runs in the past, have used them to literally only verify their runs or to not do anything at all.

To clarify: While I don't expect a thank you every day. It would be nice if the ratio wouldn't be 20:1 (complaints : nice words) and for criticism to be constructive and helpfull rather then destructive and hatefull (and by this I don't mean this thread so far).

 
  JymnasiumJymnasium

The classic vote was the closest out of all of the topics we went over.

 
  MekalbMekalb

I think Classic is something worth revisiting, and any other controversial decision that someone has built a case for reverting the decision.

 
  KanoKano

@LaVLaV In regards to the classic ban, I remember that one being relatively close and my stance on it has changed since the vote. Also what Teo mentioned is possible, we had votes but some voices were louder than others when it came to specific issues and definitely could've impacted the results of some votes especially considering this one was so close.

About mod activity: I understand and I'm grateful that you guys have done it for this long. It wouldn't hurt to reach out either directly or through forum post if you want to potentially add some new members to the moderation team though. I'd be willing to assist and I believe there's probably a few others out there who might.

 
  MacroBioBoiMacroBioBoi

I think for the most part, the changes that were voted in were good for the overall health of this game's speedrun. Feedback:

- Classic: Bring it back. The ONLY argument that holds any merit for why to remove it was that not all classes could utilize it. (Sin/Druid) The issue here is that the Class runs don't get directly compared to any other class runs. All hell runs need to buy a TP staff except Sorceress, Ele classes need LR wand except Necro. There are plenty of tools available to only certain classes. I believe it set a negative precedent and stunted the growth of potential strategy development and future time saves/innovations.

- Timer/-ns: Amazing outcome and probably the best decision from the entire conversation. If people have stopped running the game because they cannot have Sound options set to 0 manually in game, i'd be fine with someone needing to do an options flash after Baal is dead, or if the client crashes, having to flash when the character first reenters the game. The last flash would need to be added to the checklist used to verify runs, but I think that's minimal overhead.

- Old runs being retimed: I think this has to come down to a programming solution. I'm really ok with someone sitting there and measuring the time save and resubmitting their runs if they want to. It won't be %100 accurate but i'm not sure that this will really shake up the current positions. And quite frankly, i'd be fine if it does. But i think others are properly identifying this as a problematic solution, Unless someone is going to write the code (which I cannot, idk how that works) I think we'll run in circles on this one.

-Mods: I'm very aware that i've, at the very least, bugged mods about run verification. That's what sucks about being acquaintances/friends with someone who does free work. I'll be a Mod if y'all would have me. Out of everyone running this game, I think I have the next most free time.

SirbruteSirbrute likes this. 
  Bender_Bender_

- Mods
If 2/3 dont have the time anymore, we need to add more. I`d be willing to help out. If you are fine with Kano, Macro and me we would be 6, should help a lot with keeping the verify-queue short and spread the work over enough people that no-one has to spend too much time on it

- classic
I don`t really care too much, but as it is an ingame-feature i feel like we should bring it back. Don`t think a lot of people had an opinion on that when we voted and just followed along slimos argument without too much thought

- retiming:
Can`t do that for all runs with a reasonable effort and i don`t see an automated way happen. I feel like if people want to do it, they can but should carry the effort themselves. Something like a timestamp-link list with how much time they claim on that exit

91RelaX91RelaX and KanoKano like this. 
  blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing

Definitely think that classic strats should come back, on the same basis most others say: it's a feature of the game

we definitely do need more mods. I'd volunteer but I'd only be available when I'm not working (but I'll probably be pretty active during my months off)

retiming runs I think should be done to top X number of runs, or at the very least those that are within X amount of time of eachother

 
  EllieceraptorEllieceraptor

All I can say for myself is that the rule requiring VODs to have no muted portions at all put a complete, unequivocal stop to my speedrunning of Diablo 2. The way I stream, and enjoy streaming, there is going to be a lot of muted portions of all my runs; my history of submitted runs should back this up. I fully understand and acknowledge that the rule changes weren't made to target me or any other runner who feel similarly, but it still has affected me profoundly. I am looking into finding better solutions for my specific case, but it's been overwhelming in more ways than one.

Also, I'd like to personally and unequivocally thank the moderators for all the work you've put in over all these years. The community and interest for the game would not exist like it does if it hadn't been for what you've done over the years. Proverbial hats off to all y'all.

 
  KanoKano

There are ways to record both whilst keeping your music audio track separate, it can be a bit of a hassle to setup but honestly it shouldn't be that difficult. If there isn't a solution to the game sound + music in VODs thing soon I'll probably try to put out a setup guide for something like that in the coming weeks

91RelaX91RelaX likes this. 
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