bobakanoosh55555bobakanoosh55555

I think its notable that A PAL Wii U only saves ~20 seconds in any%, while amiibo certainly save more. The drastic comparison raises a similar point, but not exactly a fair one in this case.

 
  TimmiluvsTimmiluvs

Did you really compare using an amiibo in a run to using a gameshark in a run?

Fucking lol.

This thread is a disaster. Ive never seen so many people have opinions on how a LB should be structured while simultaneously not running the game.

Filters exist on LBs for a reason.

DaveCozyDaveCozy and lozplyr89lozplyr89 like this. 
  OldIronEyesOldIronEyes

Look people, given that it's possible to spoof amiibos on the cheap I don't think this is really an issue. For a dollar and change anyone with an Android phone (or a friend with an Android) can have access to Epona for runs. For about eight bucks and the same phone, you can get all of the zelda related amiibos.

As much as I agree in principle that paying extra to have a competitive setup shouldn't really be a thing, it's always going to happen anyway, and in this case at least it's something that's extremely easy to mitigate costwise.

DaveCozyDaveCozy and hewhoamareismyselfhewhoamareismyself like this. 
  LivLiv

Not running the game, and not submitting a run to an incomplete leaderboard less than a week after release of the game are not the same thing.

Of course not everyone here is running the game yet. The definition of this game's 100% hasn't even been finalized yet... that's what stage the game is at. They're discussing a ruling on a game with a (currently as of right now) list of incomplete rulesets.

 
  JamacanbacnJamacanbacn

I believe someone might have mentioned it earlier in the thread but this would pretty much solve the argument imo
(at least for amiibo, I will leave console arguments for another time)
http://i.imgur.com/vBGsFAq.png

This keeps the actual category tabs to a minimum so two are not being used for Any% and people can list out what they want to see.

Just to add this was done on the Doom leaderboard for glitchless. Good for keeping things clean and everyone is happy.

EDIT: This being said I really don't care and am going to do what is fastest. This was merely me bringing up something that might make both sides.
If Amiibo's are allowed currently then I am going to do that if I want to be competitive.

KyleCrusoeKyleCrusoe, BnH247BnH247 and warm_hamwarm_ham like this. 
  TreZc0TreZc0

Filter literally does the same thing except for splitting the leaderboards into two categories which we don't think is a good idea.
If you wanna compete for WR, get fastest version and what's needed. Else take the timeloss, nobody is stopping you from neither running nor submitting to the LBs. That's how Zelda speedrunning handled it before and we don't see a reason why this should change.

DaveCozyDaveCozy, lozplyr89lozplyr89 and TigameTigame like this. 
  quoquo

Tags also have the downside of not having a "both" tag so someone without an amiibo can only compare with others running without amiibo whether they like it or not, filters on the other hand mitigate this since you can specify exactly what you see

 
  bobakanoosh55555bobakanoosh55555

Not true. Here's the leaderboard for Wave Race 64, which does just that. Similar to this scenario, each system the game is ran on offers different clock speeds and load times, and are separated.

https://i.gyazo.com/546ccf7ee83eca91321312ffa28e89e8.png

DaveCozyDaveCozy and ffleretffleret like this. 
  EZScapeEZScape

Seeing a lot of comments that really aren't consistent. There will always be an aspect of pay2win in some aspect of speedrunning. As far as whichever game you're speedrunning, if you want to compete for world record times then you have to get the best console for that game or the best version of that game's console, as well as the fastest version of that game. If you don't have any of those things available, then you're going to need to spend money. Even in this case someone wanting to run the game on a Wii U won't be able to compete with people using the Switch, which makes sense. So in this case somebody wanting to compete for the world record speedrun of this game would already have to spend ~$450, so you can't really bring that up as an argument for the money aspect.

Since Amiibos are obviously the faster method, and are officially part of the game, banning them from any% doesn't make any sense since other games use external hardware as well. This should really come down to what makes the speedrun more enjoyable for playing and competition and not get this run to the point it relies solely on RNG. I don't know a lot about the run, so I'm only going to give examples which might not even be completely accurate, but they'll get my point across.

1. Only allowing one Amiibo per run. Since what I've read they are only allowed to be used once a day, messing with the device's clock itself to be able to use more than one or use one repeatedely should be absolutely not allowed. I've never heard of this being used in a speedrun.

2. Since I've been hearing about a treasure chest Amiibo that can give a 'rare' chance of giving good items early on, then category changes will most likely need to be a must. If the chance at getting an item is so rare it takes 15+ minutes just to start a run, then that category would most likely be less popular, but of course people would still want to run it to get the fastest time possible. Then there could be categories split for the main category which would be with the Amiibo, like Epona, that doesn't give RNG. Another category with the RNG based Amiibo. And another one that doesn't include Amiibos. If this doesn't end up being the case then the categories should be Any% and Any% No Amiibo since some people will prefer to run that category. Any categories other than the main one should be put in a tab named "Other".

Why disallow RNG based Amiibos even if they're faster? Because once somebody gets that perfect RNG run on top of skill of course the category will be dead. Nobody wants a reoccurence of when Gunner got the Pokemon Red WR using instant text bug then the community decides to ban it because it would kill majority of runs.

 
  bobakanoosh55555bobakanoosh55555

This comment is completely personal opinion. I believe (assuming others have the same view I have) that people find amiibo more obtrusive than a separate console because it changes more of the game itself. To the average person, hardware that gives slightly shorter load times may seem less advantageous than hardware that gives an item/utility to the player in game, a much more concrete, visual advantage. Further, load times are less prominent in a shorter run like any%, while amiibo grant a larger overall advantage. I understand the precedent set with Wind Waker, but there's plenty of precedent set contrary to this in other games. Seeing as BotW is drawing in a lot of runners previously uninvolved in running games in the Zelda franchise, I don't think this should be overlooked. Again, this could certainly just be me, but I'm guessing that this is the case for many people who are for the creation of sub-categories.

StamiStami likes this. 
  JTBJTB

You guys can argue all you want about if you want amiibos or not to be included, but the fact is, this leaderboard doesn't dictate how you can run the game. Even if amiibos are made a separate category, people are still going to use them in runs and have a faster time than non-amiibo runs. Someone looking for the fastest completion of this game isn't going to care about arbitrary restrictions, they are just going to look for the lowest time and that means amiibo runs.

ffleretffleret likes this. 
  r0bd0gr0bd0g

Amiibo feel to me like glorified cheat codes. It works a little differently but they have that same kind of instant-gratification feel to them. If I ran the game (TBD) and had amiibo (not likely) I wouldn't want to use them for that reason. And I wouldn't really want the default view of the leaderboard to tell me I'm slower than the people who did, but I suppose I'd probably have to get over it because it doesn't really matter all that much.

I feel there are certain facets of how amiibo ought to work in a speedrun that aren't being discussed, and instead people retread the same tired arguments and refutations of RNG and cost and the like.

I guess I'll stay the rest of the way out of it until I (hopefully) get a copy of this game and can finally get to play through it. (Or maybe I'll spout some more nonsense in another 10s or so IDK.)

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  DukeBairdDukeBaird

I agree with r0bd0g, I feel like the Amiibo are just plastic cheat codes, and so I feel they should be separated out

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  r0bd0gr0bd0g

Hey but I also said "it doesn't really matter all that much". I'll just run it how I want regardless of what happens. 😛

 
  CrimsonSun88CrimsonSun88

I don't really care for the reasoning of...."Well amiibos are used in x game, or the tingle tuner is allowed in WW so amiibos should also be allowed for BotW." If I ran a game with only a few runners for a game that required purchase of additional hardware that was not packaged with the game, I could show up to a conversation for any new game that also requires purchase of additional hardware and say "this is how it's done, use the rules our established community uses." If I'm on the fence about running a game, ideally I would like all the tools available from the get go (game, console, controller).Having to pay for anything additional, sets off a red flag and kinda comes off as an elitist/ostracizing way of thinking to me. This is just my opinion. If you could access amiibo content in game via glitch or exploit, that would be fine since it would be available to everyone right away. A filter for the LB would be welcome.

bobakanoosh55555bobakanoosh55555, BnH247BnH247 and 2 others like this. 
  StamiStami

Stami Votes for no Amiibos!!!!

 
  cros107cros107

cros107 votes separate categories!!!! Amiibo any% can still be the "real" any%, or the popular one, but I think we should have multiple categories.

StamiStami likes this. 
  TreZc0TreZc0

Current state of the leaderboard shows it works perfectly well.
4 runs, partly with amiibo, partly without. WR actually without right now, but this could change.
If people just want to compare to no amiibo times / amiibo times, they can filter out the others.

 
  bobakanoosh55555bobakanoosh55555

Despite WR being non-Amiibo, there's no denying it saves plenty of time. This is acknowledged by all 4 runners in any% to my knowledge. Seth won't run amiibo, and Venick wishes he didn't have to, and only does because it's faster, despite his disdain for them. The problem is not the ability to filter out runs, but rather the fact that they are treated as equally comparable to begin with.

StamiStami likes this. 
  TigameTigame

"there's no denying it saves plenty of time". Well, how much does it actually save? I've heard the Amiibo that gives you Epona saves 30-40 seconds. Any other Amiibo isn't even really useful for Any%. For any further Amiibo discussion, we should first time how much time it actually saves because yes, that's important because if it saves under like 2-3 minutes there's actually no need to separate them at all.
You can do runs of the game without Amiibo until you get a good time and if you want to get the WR after running it for some time I see no problem to buy 1-3 Amiibos or even buy all Zelda ones by just buying NFC tags. I don't think there's any problem cost-wise.
And in response to EZScape, we should generally not restrict Amiibo use like 1 Amiibo a run since that would be quite arbitrary. But I think we should not allow using the same Amiibo multiple times a day since you can do that if you have 2 or more copies of the same Amiibo.

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