Forums  /  Ghosts 'n Goblins  /  Mods, you all should be ashamed of yourselves...
  CLChambers00CLChambers00

As a mod of several games on Speedrun I have several things to point out concerning videos of this nature.

1) Every mod on any game are assisting on a volunteer basis, that is, something that we all do to help out of our free time. It is very possible that certain elements can go unnoticed during the "initial verification process". Every mod spends a different amount of time with this process and some are more thorough than others, and some are more experienced than others. But it should also be pointed out that the verification process does not really end with a run being placed on the leaderboard. Such should always be seen as a preliminary course of action and should only remain on the board tentatively until certain evidences are drawn out and discussed by the community. Many faked runs can remain on leaderboards for years but due to people viewing and discussing the run over a long period of time it is most likely going to be detected. Often times questions will be raised to the submitter, or a skills test is requested if we are not familiar with the runner. Runs that stand the test of time, and have remained far beyond the initial verification process should be seen as reasonably authentic, while runs by newer runners that don't stream all their attempts should be viewed with a little more caution. Therefore it is appropriate to allow the full process to run its course, and not criticize the initial process as if error can not occur.

2) Such should not be styled as a test of the mods intelligence any more than the person in the video should be criticized for misinterpreting the rules to mean that emulation is not allowed as these leaderboards clearly detail [Emu] on the runs that were done on an emulator. Such oversites and misinterpretations can and do occur, hence why I view the process to exist far beyond the initial verification. When the run is viewed by other top runners, over time it gains more legitimacy because it has stood the test of time. While the mod is responsible for the initial verification, as members of the speedrunning community we are all involved at different levels, and disputes can be raised at any time.

3) Risky and TAS-like strats are done often in speedruns. Some runs like Castlevania have 4 or more frame perfect inputs through out the run but such would not give anyone pause. Sometimes a run requires one frame inputs or sub-pixel issues which are done no matter the pace such in a game like Mega Man. Depending upon the goal, if one is behind pace, we will often see a player go completely yolo just to catch up. So, one frame delays used to manip enemies is clearly within the realm of normal.

4) As a mod myself, I personally make sure to read descriptions, know the runner, and have seen attempts by them live on Twitch. To this day, even without analyzing every frame or checking for audio abnormalities, if I don't know the runner, or if they don't live stream their attempts, and have never submitted before, I usually leave it to be verified by someone else that might know them, since it is a little bit more suspect. But again, keep in mind that different mods have different approaches. Some are more trusting initially and know fair well that if there are issues with the run that the community will eventually catch it no matter if it takes 3 years or more.

5) While I don't necessarily mind a test submission if it were done by another mod where they have agreed to do this from time to time to help each other stay on their toes, videos like this often come off as condescending and are more combative. Likewise, posting a thread telling the mods that they should be ashamed of themselves is both distasteful and reveals a misunderstanding about the entire community aspect in verification that goes way beyond the initial verification by a single mod. I really think that moderation is one of those roles that we grow into, and the more an individual practices it the more things they can learn. Because we have such a great community of speedrunners on games, every mod can rest assured that even if something was placed on the board initially, we all will contribute, discuss, and discover any problems that may exist with a run.

Love the speedrun community... stay positive!

The_Retro_ChallengerThe_Retro_Challenger, AquaBlakeAquaBlake and d4gr0nd4gr0n like this. 
  SubStyleeSubStylee

Oh this again. What I love is the guy in question didn't bother to PM or even let the mods know via this very forum his run was a fake. He posted a YT vod and made it in such a way to get a load of views and cause some stupid drama. Guy is a joke and his supporters are stupid as shit.

 
  RottDawgRottDawg

Yeah I mean that's totally what someone would do to create awareness or whatever bullshit reason he claimed it was for. He definitely wasn't some bottom scraping clickbaiter.

SubStyleeSubStylee likes this. 
  SubStyleeSubStylee

Oh, of course, Rott. Everyone knows making a cheat run, letting it sit there for 6months and not letting the mods know anything about it and then making a video shitting on them is totally the way to improve SRC's modding. Dude is the paragon of speedrunning integrity. I now see why this came up again... LoanSharkJoe2 you deserved the ban and the mods here didn't do it to you. You and your stupid dick riders just need to let it go and stop being idiots.

 
  RottDawgRottDawg

He also made a Discord after where his followers were trying to DDoS the site, something that folks who care about the site would totally do.

 
  d4gr0nd4gr0n

If you're going to test mods with a cheated run, you do it like the guy who made this video. That's the classy/respectful way to do it.

When one has a concern about how a leaderboard is ran or concerns about a specific run, you have to speak up, you have to bring it to the attention of the game's community AND its leadership right from the start.

Pulling a stunt like what LoanSharkJoe did is not the answer and no matter what excuses he will say to justify his actions, he still failed to communicate with the community on these issues he quite clearly had over how the leaderboard was ran prior to when the video was made.

I of course am saying all this under the assumption that he actually cares about the integrity of the leaderboard.

Regardless, he needs to go to great lengths to build back trust with this community after the actions he's committed (and let's be honest here, it's probably going to take more than that now with his most recent jab at another member in the community). Otherwise, it's time for him and his followers to move on

UltraStarUltraStar likes this. 
  k0zzxk0zzx

i don't run this game, but here's my 2cents.
It's really not uncommon for runs to get verified without being watched, i have also encountered this on a handfull of boards, to begin with it really fucks with the integrity of the leaderboard. There's also lots of cases where runs are only watched if they beat a certain time criteria. I understand the point this guy is trying to make but he's going about it the wrong way. In conclusion he does have a point, a video with the fceux play button on it making it through the cracks is kinda unacceptable. But cheating and expecting not to get banned is also hillarious.

 
  KomradeKomrade

It's very clear the creator of that video does not care about SRC, GnG, whether or not the moderators are doing their job proper, or about being honest. I think he chose GnG specifically because the title is recognizable in name only. While it's a classic for some people, it's very much an inactive speedrun.

Creating a TAS with the intent of not only trying to get moderators banned (he makes every attempt to show their names when possible), but to use the acceptance of it down the road to try and catapult himself into the bubble of "the speedrunning community sucks so I'll shit on it to make money" is obvious and laughable.

His response video to being banned just cements how much of a con job it really is. Taking the route of the victim, propping up his channel and discord, and putting on display other certain "famous members of the speedrunning community" chiming in on his video makes his goal that much more clear.

Not knowing the finer details of what happened, when it happened, I can't speak on behalf of the moderators. What I can say is that moderation isn't a job. It's not something that is handled by top men who skim over every frame. And what might be an obvious TAS to some, might not be the same to others. I'm not sure if they just accepted it without viewing it, or what they did, but the fact that the cheater in question didn't submit a WR time makes his intent even more clear.

I can say from my own perspective that the reason I try to take verification seriously, and the reason I take so long to verify, is because I've dealt with and rejected fake and/or cheated runs in the past, and the interactions with those types is never fun. I'm just one guy though, and I can't skim every run completely, so one may have slipped by, but I feel I've caught them all. Still, I can only imagine what would happen if some kid with no intent other than to further himself got a fake run past me...

Maybe the OP should hesitate attacking moderators when he's merely an outsider looking in. I will say though thanks for pointing out the existence of that video, as well as that channel. I look forward to pointing to it when people ask me why others cheat.

RandomEffektRandomEffekt likes this. 
  HachimenHachimen

I'm probably giving people notifications from necroing this thread, but couldn't help notice this guy did not even realize emulator submissions were allowed for the game. Incredibly low behavior, no doubt done for self-promotion, and it's super depressing youtube audiences fall for this kind of thing so readily. 8/16-bit games communities do not deserve such disparaging treatment - it's all volunteer work and done on a very limited time schedule!

 
  spartaman64spartaman64

why are emulator submissions allowed in the nes section? but yeah im more sympathetic than him i understand that sometimes you are tired or feeling off and miss things and I never read the description of a youtube video either. in fact im more surprised that no one else took a look at it and notified the moderators that something is off.

 
  HachimenHachimen

@spartaman64
There's no harm in it. NES emus are very accurate. There are no gameplay differences between a NES emulator and console. You could argue it could be unfair when competing for a WR because of controller differences, etc., but in most cases you'd be just limiting accessibility. And IMO on less active leaderboards there's no need to be uptight about scrutiny - it's like vandalism on wikipedia - it can be reverted easily.

 
  CLChambers00CLChambers00

@Hachimen, there are differences that are noticable in some games because emulators dont mimik PPU/CPU alignment variability of consoles.

 
  d4gr0nd4gr0n

I will probably link the NES emulator guide that has been posted on other leaderboards to the rules tab to ensure people are using the right emulators at some point when I have more time. If there are irregularities people notice with the game running on any emulator currently established to be accurate for speedrunning, you are free to mention them so I become aware of them.

Anyway the mod team has been shaken up slightly and I am now appointed as a moderator. So with that said, moving forward, any submission will be thoroughly looked over by yours truly to ensure we don't have another situation like this happen again. This includes runs verified by other mods. Should be easy since this board is currently very inactive (like pretty much every other game I moderate).

However, do expect verifications by me to be slow because of this but I'm sure there will be no complaints on that note. I value my spare time.

Going to leave this thread open if people have any further concerns that need to be brought up but next time a new thread pops up complaining about the old mod teams' ineptitude because they watched LoanSharkJoe's video, it is automatically getting locked AND deleted. You have been warned.

The_Retro_ChallengerThe_Retro_Challenger likes this.