Forums  /  Yoshi series  /  Yoshi's Woolly World  /  100% no badges? (Locked)
  HarpoonCannonHarpoonCannon

I feel like this would be great since the use of badges basically allows you to completely dump on the whole game. would this be allowed to get added to this games leaderboard?

 
  socialspeedrunnersocialspeedrunner

It'll be added, but to make the leaderboards clean it'll be added in the misc section, we had a problem before where we had too many categories that no one ran on there and we had seperate boards for the number of controllers used (instead of the drop down we have now to merge) and it made the leaderboards look confusing and messy and a decision was made by all the runners at the time to not have that happen. But I'll get to adding it now

Personally speaking I'd consider using badges though, they add a lot of depth to the game and especially in 100% lead to some very interesting tech, but it's your choice, enjoy learning and running it!

 
  OrcastrawOrcastraw

I'd vouch for 100% no badges as well, it definitely seems a lot more interesting than what badges can provide, and believe me, I've tried to use badges, and they definitely only make the run easier at the expense at what makes yoshi interesting and fun. It definitely has the highest skill ceiling and allows for most interesting stuff. I also don't quite see the problem with adding it, any% has a no badges leaderboard and I don't see why 100% can't have a main leaderboard as well. If clutter is your problem, then legacy categories like pre-usa 100% or "All Collectibles" can be taken off.

 
  OrcastrawOrcastraw

Can we please get a comment on this? Misc leaderboard or main leaderboard, this category at least desrives SOMETHING. I am of the opinion that 100% no-badges deserves a main leaderboard, akin to what any% has, as I beleive it is a legitmate category of merit at the least, on par with any% and it's badges and no badges boards. I think badges really cheese the run and running without them add more fun, competition, and chance for clutch gameplay, and again, think it deserves the same treatment any% classic gets. I'm not asking for some niche category like All Collectibles, which seems much more fraudulent than this, as it's literally 100%, without full health collecting. Pretty weird. I'm asking for a main leaderboard, on the site, for a category I and others are very interested in, and I personally have pledged and dedicated a lot of time now and in the future to run this. I tried running with badges, as per your suggestion, and things became slightly interesting, but as the game went on, things became more ridiculous the longer I considered them. Running 2-1 with watermelon badge felt like cheating, with every enemy dying in one hit and removing all need for eggs and cool egg and platforming tech. My viewers watched for WAY too long last night, as I struggled to kill Baby Bowser without taking damage. With badges? Just put on a fire/lava immmunity badge and it's a breeze. Badges seemed like cheating and easy mode to me, and I'm again, not alone in this sentiment. Not to mention, after 4-8 you unlock the magnet badge which makes difficult collecting a breeze, and then it REALLY starts to look like easy mode, with no eggs needed at times with watermelon seeds, collecting sometimes being nullified by magnet badge, and there LITERALLY BEING NO FINAL BOSS, as fire badge takes care of this. I can only imagine how easy world of wool, (Egg-S) would be with badges, as the level doesn't always give you a million eggs, and watermelon would take care of that, as well as my main struggle in that level being to not take damage in the sand section, which the fire badge would take care of... With no dedicated runners for All Collectibles or All Levels, meanwhile 100% is being discussed by many, I really think it deserves the same treatment as any% with its badges and no-badges leaderboards, and hope the mods can agree.

 
  socialspeedrunnersocialspeedrunner

Well for a start imo the only bit that's difficult in the final boss without taking damage is the bit with the giant yarn as dodging the fire in the first phase is easy but that's beside the point.

I guess there can be a 100% no badges category but personally I disagree with it being anything but misc. It's a mechanic of the game used to go faster and you're literally banning said mechanic to create what would be a slower run. I have also spoke with Torco on this and he agreed with this sentiment. I guess I can see All Collectibles and All Levels being moved to misc but the problem the boards are having and the other mods agree is that we have too many categories it looks silly. We literally have more categories than runners and it's a bit ridiculous.

 
  amberamber

I think that, at it's core, Yoshi's Woolly World is an platformer that rewards exploration, and the Magnet Badge reduces the amount of exploration done. However, banning a mechanic of the game to make the run slower still doesn't seem right. I'm with SSR on this one. I'm fine with a no-badges category - I'll probably run it in addition to regular 100% - but I think it's best left in misc.

 
  OrcastrawOrcastraw

Hi. I just finished a 9 and a half hour 100% run, to find out it was moved to misc. From what I understand, misc categories are categories that have low competition and low anything, basically meme categories.

I want to know why no-badges 100%, a category several people are interested in running is being pushed aside like a meme category due to unexplained fear of "clutter". 5 categories on a leaderboard doesn't seem cluttered at all, especially relative to games like Ocarina of Time where there's more than that. There definitely seems to be no method to this madness, as with a game with as much category potential as this, 5 categories seems completely fine, far from clutter at all. Looking across speedrun.com, several games have 5 categories, and it doesn't come across as a mess at all. If anything, the only explanation is some bias and moderation opinion of what clutter is that doesn't treat 100% the same as any%, with 100% not being allowed a badgeless category like any%. I see no difference between 4 or 5 categories are far as visual/aesthetic look, and with a category with as many people interested and potential as badgeless 100%, and any% badgeless being a thing, I relaly don't understand why this treatment is being dealt.

This category isn't niche, and it isn't lame, or memey, or miscellaneous at all, and I really don't understand why it was on the main boards for a few days and is off now, and why there's an insistence by the moderators for any% to have 3 variations and 100% to only have one(on the main boards). I assure you this category is legitimate and competitive and several people want to run this fucking thing, and don't understand why the mods are trying to ignore what I and harpoon and another_castle and others show at least, as a group, SOME INTEREST in running.

 
  [user deleted]

first off only 3 people want to run it. Secondly no badges doesn't make a different in route and doesn't effect many levels. It works in any% classic because of how short it is and it gets rid of rng but 100% as it is has little freeby rng and the time you waste by not having badges makes little difference and it doesn't have any tricks you wouldn't do in 100% with badges. You can still submit your time to the actual 100% category as well.

 
  OrcastrawOrcastraw

You guys don't have to understand why I and others like what we like, but please, respect our opinions, as I do yours. I'm only asking for fairness and the same treatment any% gets. I assure you, 100% with badges is a lot less interesting and as one in the community with some of the most time in the game, I can say that with a decent amount of weight. I didn't think I needed to prove myself to get this thought across, but I guess I'll have to make a video about this to show what I mean in action...That will be up in a few, getting a couple of footage and rendering isn't too much of an effort obviously, lol.

 
  socialspeedrunnersocialspeedrunner

Misc categories are not exclusively those that are memes, they are ones that are not run often or runs deemed to be runs with minimal difference to the main category. 100% No Badges falls this way. The distinction with Any% Classic can be made not only due to the high number of runners but due to the fact that Any% Classic No Badges has a lot of differences to the run in comparison and there are a lot of route differences in comparison to the difference in 100% categories. Others agree with the idea of no badges being misc, which is how it will stay

 
  OrcastrawOrcastraw

So you're rating a category which nobody has ever done before and stating it's not different enough? How are you qualified to speak and rate a category which you have never run? Or anyone? Nobody has ever run 100% with badges, only without, and that's me. Nobody has tested it seriously, except for me. Very few people play this game either, I'm the one who streams it almost every day and has the discussions in my chat with people interested in running this category. Putting this category as a major category affects none of the moderation whatsoever, and I notice that you ignore my rebuttal to the "clutter" statement, perhaps acknowledging that it was opinionated nonseense afterall. I see absolutely no reason why the moderation of this leaderboard, few of whom actually play the game actively and none of whom play this category, are relentless on denying the 100% category with the highest skill ceiling an actual leaderboard. How do you expect the Yoshi's Island (SNES) runners to take this game seriously, or anyone comparing the two, when there's bullshit like the fire immunity and fall-in-a-pit-no-problem badge running rampant?? It's literally impossible to die to falling in your category. The badges make the game viable for completion by 5 year olds, and you're enforcing those badges as if they're competitively interesting. Where's the risk? Where's the interesting gameplay? It's all gone by badges. Casuals playing this game die, they play the game like intended, they aren't invincible like the people exploiting the game with watermelon and other invincibility badges. Not all levels are broken, but a decent amount are, and once 4-8 passes, and you unlock the magnet badge, and you don't even need to have levels broken by watermelon or lava badges to have the game broken on another plane, collecting is absolutely stupid with that badge. I've had more than 1 person tell me they're discouraged from running this game and category due to the moderation being so against it, when they clearly don't see eye-to-eye with the players. Hence why I made this video, and again, I simply don't understand why the moderation absolutely refuses to put this category on the boards, with no loss to them, me insisting the categories are difficult, the weird "clutter" excuse out of the way, and it absolutely being the most competitive form of 100%. It's not just that the category allows for mistakes, it's much more than that.

 
  [user deleted]

If you're going to compare this game to smash then I will compare your argument to the anti-glitch argument. The argument is that glitches are playing the game 'unintended' and gets rid of the fun and competitiveness of the speedrun, basically the same as what you're saying, but that's not the important part. Yes the badges do break some of the levels but not by much. Not having the fire immunity badge just means having to wait around some areas for fire and more jumping and less use of height gain. The only main use of it is in the final boss. The pit immunity badge also only affects a few levels by reducing climbing, waiting etc. And the watermelon badge reduces movement and egg collecting, which is very little. Another thing is that I've actually timed it and the speed badge is actually faster than the magnet badge in most levels, with the magnet badge only having the advantage in some rooms such as in 5-4 or 6-6. Banning badges only means moving is slower and a few select rooms require more movement. Even in ¤-S speed badge is mostly faster. If you want to continue running the category then there's no problem with that at all. There's no point in making a game more competitive when it already has things liked dumbed down movement and simplified eggs, It's just the way the game is

 
  OrcastrawOrcastraw

" It's just the way the game is", most people play the game casually without using badges, it seems silly to argue that it's the way the game is, again see my Smash analogy with items. It's not really the way the game is, and it's easily played without them. Everyone here defends badges like they're weird to take away, when I don't see this argument for how they're a part of the game and so on, when I could just as easily see a speedrun community embrace no badges as much as you guys embrace your badges. No comment on the speed badge, but it's relieving I suppose to know it trumps the magnet badge at times.

Also, to everyone saying there's minimal changes between the categories, instead of saying that, how about you try to reach an educated opinion about the differences between the two, and try to say which is the best? Because badges look like easy mode to me, and that is not the best. There's two possible ways to run 100%, and instead of trying to find which is the best and most competitve and fun, you're denying one the option and not listening to what the new 100% runners want whatsoever. Blanketed just, allowing badges by default makes absolutely no sense to me and doing something just because it's allowed seems stupid and completely without forethought.

Also, for reference to my video, almost every clip of gameplay used with badges is from a level difficult to do normally and get 100%, but I got them all flawlessly with badges, again hinting at it being easy mode!!

 
  ValluVallu

The developers wanted players to use the gems they collect to badges. Badges are fast. It's like using items in a Zelda game, I really don't see what's the problem here.

amberamber likes this. 
  socialspeedrunnersocialspeedrunner

Ok then. Lets clarify a few things before finally explaining where the board will go.

The mods agree with the situation staying as is, with 100% No Badges as misc. Not running a category does not necessarily mean you lack knowledge in a category. I actually decided to try some of these levels mentioned with and without badges that were mentioned here and there really isn't that much difference. As for badges reducing skill, depending on how used they can increase difficulty as well, both in 100% and in Any% Classic. But regardless, this point on skill is not really relevant in deciding whether it is a misc category or not, as the reason of it being misc or not is more linked to other factors, in my personal opinion anyhow.

Demolition makes a very good point on the situation. The badges are not cheating, nor are they unintentional. They are an option. And whether that option is undertaken or not in a casual playthrough is irrelevant to whether they are intentional or not.

There could be a point if badges drastically effected things, in ways such as GTAV Any% where by repeatedly dying you can skip levels. That's also similar to this game's Any% but this is considered a main category since we feel it deserves the recognition as the quickest way to complete the game, regardless of the bullshit the category really is.

Being an easy mode is also irrelevant to whether it is a more relevant category or not, since difficulty should not decide whether a run is a main category or not.

When you mention new 100% runners, we have 100% runners in Demolition and Another Castle, and neither of them have problem with this category being misc. So when you mention runners as plural you should really refer to it as singular. Allowing badges by default also makes a lot of sense since the game has them as a mechanic. If it was a glitch there could be more room for debate, but as Demolition mentioned, that then goes to the argument of glitched v glitchless runs, but the point is it is not a glitch an therefore should be considered as something to be included and makes sense to be.

Overall, considering all that, there is not really a reason to change the board to have 100% No Badges as a main category, and this is the status quo and the opinion of everyone aside from you Orcastraw. Therefore, since it is of the majority opinion, the leaderboards will stay as it is, 100% No Badges will remain a misc category.

With no more discussion necessary as all sides have been clear on their respective points, there is not really a reason to keep this topic open, and therefore is now locked.

amberamber and ValluVallu like this.