Forums  /  Ys series  /  Ys I Chronicles/Complete/Eternal  /  Should we only allow certain versions of the game?
  CronokirbyCronokirby

At this point in time, we're allowing all PC versions of YS1 on these boards. I have a few problems with this.

à priori, the 2001 release is the fastest version, with justified timesaves, as well as a good 30s that remain unexplained. Now, these are PC games, so you'd think they'd be easy to acquire and run, so it shouldn't really be that much of a hassle to ask someone to switch to the fastest version. However, the complete version is simply unplayable on any version of windows past XP, my machine screams and spits out a garbled mess of cyan and magenta as soon as I run the game. So at this point, to run the fastest version of the game, I'd have to either use a virtual machine, or have a second, much older pc that I'd capture. Both of those options seem quite odd, when there's a perfectly acceptable, and incredibly easy to acquire version of the game available on steam. It just seems odd to me that we'd allow 1 time on the leaderboards stick out like a sore thumb, when most people that will come to the game won't have access to the version that was used, and will have to settle for a slower (albeit not by much, but it's a lot once you get up there) version.

And it's not like this is some ploy to bump my time up, or to try and disqualify the WR, since korzic still has the fastest C+ time, and we'd simply have that time on top.

This is something that's bothered me a bit for a while, and I've had to rewrite this post a few times to not come off as a dick, but I had to spark the discussion at some point. If we can come to a consensus on no longer allowing submissions on "archaic" versions (which to be fair is extremely unlikely, seeing as no one will learn the game on the complete version), I think the leaderboards would be fairer, and better of as whole.

I'd like to close this off by saying I'm still open to discussion on this matter, and that this is more the beginning of a discussion I'd like to have, rather than some ultimatum, or decisive rant I'd like to impose.

 
  KorzicKorzic

Hey, no harm done in bringing this up. In fact, I'm glad you did, because this is a valid issue I've thought about before, but I'm not sure how to best address it. I've thought about putting my Complete run as a separate category, but then we'd have to do the same for Ravi's run on the PSP version as well (which is on the Normal difficulty, to boot). The only issue I have with this solution is a potential over-saturation of categories that will likely only ever be specific to a very small number of people.

There's also the Japanese PC Chronicles version to consider, which Claptor has already done runs for. I've yet to test it, but Claptor believes it may even be faster than the Complete version, due to it still having all of the benefits of Chronicles+ (Roda Tree cutscene skip, holding cancel to speed up text), but also being in Japanese for faster text (Raba was one example I remember he cited as being notably faster). For my part, I intend to pick it up and do a run of that version at some point, and would most likely stick with it if it was indeed faster. Mostly because I can take only so much mashing through those intro scenes before I get annoyed, haha. Anyway, that could eliminate the Complete issue, but I think most people would still be attracted to running Chronicles+ over the original PC Chronicles, mostly due to ease of accessibility and the other modern enhancements. So we're right back to the beginning of this discussion, basically. Except, and I've absolutely no proof of this, Japanese PC Chronicles would likely be runnable on newer systems, so aside from acquiring an import, it shouldn't be too hard to play.

Anyway, it does seem like Chronicles+ is the favored version by far, so I do agree something needs to be done. But what do we do if someone wants to submit for the Eternal version? Or a different difficulty setting (pretty sure there's a Hard difficulty speedrun out there already)?

 
  KorzicKorzic

I'd also like to add that there's already the ability to sort the leaderboards by version and difficulty simply by clicking the dropdown boxes, but if people feel it'd be better to just manually create a new category for the separate versions (minus Eternal, unless there's demand for that), that's a workable alternative, I guess. The question still remains, what to then do about the runs that are on another difficulty? Just leave them in the same category as other runs of the same version, but still let people sort them via the dropdown options?

 
  ClaptorClaptor

I think separating game versions and difficulties when it's all barely different into new categories is a slippery slope into arbitrary category land which is something I'd like to avoid. I do kind of get what you're saying, but at the moment there's only one Chronicles+ run below a 46. If there were a lot of competitive times at the top using + I would agree more, but not at the current state. It just feels silly to create a version standard for the majority of runs when only there's one of them where it would have maybe mattered what version was used. At the very least if a seperate category for + was to be made I think it should be a secondary category or even misc considering the current state of + times.

As far as these other versions go, as Korzic said, there's the PC version of Chronicles which I use and is what + is based on so you shouldn't run into many problems if you can use +. On top of that I can say that it does work on Windows 7 and 10 (I never used 8 so I can't say anything about that) and so does Complete. On 7 I remember Complete having a problem similar to what you're describing which was solved with DxWnd and when I just installed it on 10 it worked perfectly so you definitely have more options than a VM.

 
  KorzicKorzic

That was the other issue I had with placing my run in a different category. I don't at all fault people for not taking on Jenocres at level 1 or 2 as I do, but using risky strats like that is the primary reason that I have the time that I do, not because I run a different version than other people. Certainly that plays a part in it, but until others start employing similar strats (and I know Cronokirby is already doing Yog & Omu without armor, so huge props for that) or otherwise improve on the route, I don't think it's particularly fair to have my run sit in a corner based on version differences. And my Chronicles+ time just feels sloppy by comparison, honestly.

That said, I wish you the best with your runs Cronokirby. Regardless of the version. Though I really would like to see my time beaten someday. =p

 
  DkretroDkretro

Krorzic, i hope to beat you time, but as im have only done this for a month i have 14 min to take of yet. 🙂 lol

I can see the issue, but that people are not able to run the best verion cant be Korzic problem. If a pal runner on a old console cant get a japanese console. its there problem, right?

I have to think that the menu wo seperate versions, difficulty is enough imo.

Have you looked into the Phone version of Ys? to see if that faster? 🙂

 
  KorzicKorzic

For the time being, I decided to link to my Chronicles+ time in the comment part of my Complete submission. That way, everyone has easy access to a decent version comparison between the two, using almost the exact same route.

Although, Cronokirby is looking like he'll close the gap eventually. So we'll probably need to reach a decision soon on what to do regarding the different versions. I mean, it sounds like he may run Japanese PC Chronicles, but what's to stop this issue from coming up again in the future?

And no, I haven't looked into the phone version. Even if it does somehow turn out to be faster (which I doubt, just on account of it not having the same technology as a PC), I doubt anyone would take that version seriously. Aside from expertly playing on such a device being improbable, there's also the issue of how to record such a run.

 
  ClaptorClaptor

I honestly don't think there's anything that needs to be done when Chronicles exists. Complete may be a bit inconsistent on how it works with modern operating systems, but Chronicles works just as well as Chronicles+ does and is at the very least around the same speed as Complete. This isn't different from any other RPG speedrun using the Japanese version because the text is faster. I think the best thing to do is to make more awareness of Chronicles existence, for example I don't think that SDA page new runners get info from mentions it at all.

 
  KorzicKorzic

Good point about the SDA page, I just updated it. To be honest, I was waiting until there was more solid proof of Japanese PC Chronicles being the fastest version, but I went ahead and attempted to make that page more relevant both in regards to Chronicles, as well as Eternal.

Feel free to edit it if you think something's off, or could be improved.

Likewise, this has me curious about Japanese PC Chronicles for Ys II. I'll at least do a similar update to that page later, but I wonder if Complete could still beat it, mostly because it has that weird warp menu bug to bypass the collapsing bridge screen before Darm. Well, I guess that's for another topic, though.

 
  KorzicKorzic

With Kreggan's recent Chronicles+ time being so close to my own, I'm starting to wonder if it'd indeed be better to categorize the runs by version (with difficulty being a drop down selection). Version differences aside, I honestly don't know which of our two runs had the overall better gameplay. Mind you, both runs still have decent possible improvements to be made (~20 - 30s, I'd say), but some runners are starting to use the strategies that put my run so far ahead for so long, so I feel we're starting to reach a point where version differences do come into play.

I'm thinking of having Chronicles+ be the main category, with Complete and Chronicles being other categories (because let's face it, I'm the only one that runs Complete, at the moment). Chronicles would encompass the Japanese PSP and PC versions, as well as the English PSP release. Regarding Eternal (Japanese PC) and Eternal Story (Japanese PS2), those could be misc. categories, if anyone ever bothers to run them.

EDIT: Or we could also group the English releases together (PSP Chronicles and Chronicles+), then the Japanese Chronicles (PC and PSP), then the others as their own thing, as needed.

Thoughts?

 
  ClaptorClaptor

I don't want to slight Kreggan's run (or anybodies really) since it's obviously very good, but my problem with separating versions of this game is that the runs are all the same throughout the versions besides Eternal and that it basically comes out of laziness and not wanting to bother acquiring another version of the game. If we were talking about separating the PCE and these versions I could agree since they're vastly different things. In this case however, the biggest difference is with text, especially between Chronicles and Chronicles+ where this actually is the only difference relevant to speedrunning. Honestly with how similar they are separating them as different categories feels arbitrary and a little pointless.

 
  KorzicKorzic

If someone were to run the PCE version (not sure, but I think I've seen runs of it posted to Nicovideo), wouldn't it be easier to create a new game page altogether? The SMS version has its own separate page, after all. Of course, since there's so many versions of Ys I & II, that could get out of hand really quickly. =p

Anyway, my concern is that with the game route as it is now, my time seems literally unbeatable without someone else switching to Complete (probably not happening) or Japanese Chronicles, in which case I think it wouldn't be too hard to beat for someone using my strats. Although I really need to stop being lazy and try Japanese PC Chronicles for myself. =p But for Chronicles+, if a run had exceptional Vagullion luck on top of a well-executed remainder of the run, I still don't see it being faster than my Complete time, or not by very much (like a few seconds). Which it really ought to be recognized as the better run in such a potential scenario, since my current time is still reasonably improvable via better gameplay alone.

Well, we do at least have the ability to sort runs by version, so there's that.

 
  ClaptorClaptor

While I agree a run like Kreggan's is arguably better, it's just that the differences are incredibly minor overall and the runs are basically exactly the same. Personally, I really don't feel like this warrants full on category separation and I think the current version filter is good enough. Also the I mostly brought up the PCE version as an example of something that would be a very different run, maybe it wasn't a very good one though.

 
  CronokirbyCronokirby

The only problem I currently have is that the most accessible version of the game is obsoleted (albeit only slightly) by 2 versions, 1 of them being almost unplayable on modern PCs, and the other being quite difficult to get a hold of.

 
  KorzicKorzic

For Japanese PC Chronicles, I'm pretty sure you can order a physical copy directly from Falcom. I also saw where some sites have it available for digital download, but I wasn't able to get it that way because of region restrictions or something.