Hey folks, now that we have some new runners, I'd like to get everyone's input on adjustments needed to improve the rule set.

Some suggested topics:

1. Start of timing - I think we can be more precise than -2 at reset. Does anyone have a way to measure when inputs are first accepted after reset?

2. Suggested/Banned Emulators

3. Categories - Do we need anything besides Any%? Meme 1-Character Runs?

4. Any thing else on your mind.

Thanks for weighing in.

All right, I guess I'll get us started.

1. If we don't have a good way to measure when inputs are first accepted, we could also just start the timer on reset. All runs would be two seconds slower, but it makes for a simple rule.

2. I don't know much about different emulators, but, do we need to have a rule in place regarding the random character selection? Some options appear to consistently give Nightcrawler at the start - is that an unreasonable advantage? I don't mind the resets - and I also don't mind if someone else gets Nightcrawler first try every time.

3. I think Any% is fine for now. If we really start breaking the game, we can talk about different categories. I don't think we're there yet. That said, is there any harm in creating a separate category that bans out of bounds? Perhaps not a good idea to split boards when the community is small?

I will get single-character categories up though. How do we want to time Magneto? Start timing when Magneto is selected before Fortress 1? Or when you first gain control (similar question as above...) Maybe a bit weird to start time in the middle of the game, but it is also weird for your Magneto time to rely on how you play with other characters earlier in the game. Or we could just not include a Magneto category.

Sonikkustar just messaged me regarding when your character receives inputs:

"It's 164 frames between the first frame you can reset and the first frame you can do a meaningful input. So it'd be like -2.73"

I'm still very much learning this run, and it'll be a while before I submit a run to this, but since it's quiet around here, I might as well toss in two cents on these questions:

1. The 164 frames/2.73 seconds sounds sensible to me.

2. I worry about any emulator that's consistently doing something that should be random - it makes me wonder what other parts of the run are going to be impacted by significant differences between hardware and emulator. Might be worth checking in with other communities if there are ideal emulators. I know Fusion is generally quite solid, as is Bizhawk.

3. I think the best reason for splitting the boards would be a trick that's especially hard to execute and may turn people off to the run/differs significantly from the run as it works now as Any%. I don't know that there's any need to do that right now? but as I'm still partway through learning, I'm not the best to ask.

For Magneto, I think the easiest answer is to just allow any character until Magneto is obtained, and then only Magneto is allowed. Keeps it simple and more consistent with all of the other character categories. I'm really excited to learn this and start branching out into the various characters. One of the other games I run has one or two viable characters, so running it gets stale after a bit. I made up a new category that requires using each character at least once to re-inject some variety into the run. I think each character getting their own category will help reduce the pretty much always Nightcrawler nature of the run.

(Unrelated, thank you so much for the guide! I've been meaning to learn this game for ages, and having a clear guide has lowered the difficulty of starting enough to finally get me learning it.)

Hey, jquestionmark, I'm glad you decided to pick up the game! Let us know if you have any questions as you get going. And thanks for jumping into the discussion here.

So, the question around splitting the boards comes from two new skips that were discovered this past week. They aren't super difficult to execute, but are certainly different than normal gameplay. We may find new places/ways to make use of the new glitch in the coming weeks as well.

Ah - to build on your comment, wouldn't it be a fun category if we had to complete at least 3 levels with each character? There are 22 levels, I believe, so one character would have to complete 4. Some interesting routing choices to make.

Oh my, those certainly seem like they have the potential to break the run if the right applications are found. I wonder if it's worth making a board prior to folks asking for it. I know it was just discovered, but the potential of that tech might make it worth it to set it up now. Personally, I'll be learning the run as it was when the guide went up and seeing about incorporating stuff like that afterwards. I'd rather get the fundamentals down before I dive deep into warping about out of bounds, haha.

A 3 levels/character category would be fascinating to see. Would make for some very interesting picking and choosing of who to use where for a best overall route.

2. This game is extremely unique and following emulator guidelines is tricky here with the unusual frame 1 RNG of picking the character. I definitely wouldn't promote Fusion too much, and rather would prefer Retroarch(GPGX core)/Blastem as the preferred emulator, as they are closer to the original timing of the Genesis, whereas Fusion has been proven to run the fastest out of emulation out there. Disallowing certain emulators is probably not wise, as we don't want to discourage runners at all, but showing something similar to this board might be the best option: https://www.speedrun.com/world_of_illusion

3. I think garnering a community first is more important than worrying about splitting the boards just yet. We already have glitches in the run that are fairly substantial setting the precedent. I'm always of the mindset that Any% should be the main category until proven otherwise, and that's usually in the form of a credits warp, or substantially changing over 50% of the route where changes should be considered.

4. My big question here is will the bounty rules mimic the current board rules, or is that operating separately and independently? If this is off topic or needs its own thread, I do apologize!

In short, I'll go with the majority of what the current runners are leaning towards.

More detailed - 2. I waited a bit because I'm not the best when it comes to the handling/knowing what to do with emulators. Seems like Retroarch is a standard that's appearing on other Genesis leaderboards, even ones I mod. But I question it only because the NES community doesn't like it. Makes me question if it's fool-proof. But besides my thought, I'll lean with what Chubbus listed above.

3. I personally think the board should be separated, as I feel these skips are just the beginning. Now, do I know what other skips are going to come? No. But seeing the work you, A-Frame, BaconOmelette, and now Sonikkustar are putting into this, I feel like the game will break further, and quickly (unless you all were to stop/take a break).

With ALL that said though, I'm also for keeping the board as-is for now (probably face palming at this point, I know I know...I'm sorry!! lol). I'm going to miss the adrenaline rush of going through Phalanx 4 and some other levels in a speedrun if we're skipping all over the place. Which is why I thought to split the board, so for people that like the NC movement in a run and for everyone that absolutely LOVES Phalanx 4, like myself, they can still have that without being penalized, in a sense, because everyone else has incorporated the skips.

Ultimately, I'll go with what the majority goes with - my vote is to keep it as-is, no splitting, for now.

4. I've no real comment on the bounty at this time. I personally like that the top ones were extended through the year and people can compete back and forth for them. I tend to hop all over the place with speedrun/casual playthroughs/streams. So it gives me flexibility to do that. If this somehow were to change tomorrow, though, I would not be opposed - again, whatever the community wants to move with.

Thanks all for your input.

I've updated the rules to note that timing starts at 2.73 seconds after reset. Also set up the single-character boards.

In the near future, I'll plan to take a tour of emulators I haven't tried yet. Just to verify a run can be completed normally. I suspect I won't notice any difference in performance (not that it isn't there - just that I probably won't be able to detect it).

Regarding the bounty, I think we can plan to stick to the Any% rule list. If new discoveries are made that prompt us to split the boards, I would only want to move away from the Any% rule set if that has very strong support from the runners. I don't want the ground shifting too much near the end of the bounty.

Until now, the Magneto Clone fight alone wasn't enough to warrant a 100% category. Not right now, necessarily, but what would you guys think of a category that Includes that optional fight and also doesn't permit major skips? So, no new Fortress 2 and Phalanx 4 skips - and also no floor clip after Sentinel Core boss? To show as much of the game as possible, but still move through quickly. This definition is somewhat tricky, since thin floor skips can happen on accident. For example, early Sentinel 2 exit and falling through floors in Savage 1 - so, what do we do with those?

Hey all, a question has come up recently regarding exactly when the timing for the game ends. The rules currently say:

"Run ends when you lose control of your character as the screen fades out on the final level."

Until now, I have been stopping my timer when the screen is completely black, but you actually lose control of your character at the start of the fade out. It isn't much, but it is enough to swing a time above/below a second threshold.

Anyone have a strong opinion on how we handle this? Or precedent from other games we can look to?

I'm definitely in the camp of completely blacks screen to end time. Just easier on the runners and verifiers to ensure it's on time rather than a slight screen fade to pick out

Hey, runners! I hope we are all doing well. I just submitted all but the Magneto% Solo run times I did. I guess what I wanted to ask is what would entail a "Magneto%" to get a tab on here created? What I did was I took any% strats up until you defeat Magneto in Avalon. From Fortress 1 to the end of the game I would then only use Magneto. Would this be an adequate rule set for this particular run? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Hey all, I went ahead and updated the rules to read: "Run ends when the screen is completely black at the end of the final level."

It appears that most runners have been timing this way already. I also think it allows for more accurate splitting - as once you see the screen start to fade, you can prepare to split.

I have also added a Magneto category under the Single-Character category with the rule: "For Magneto, any character may be used until he is unlocked."