Forums  /  Warcraft  /  Rules for WC3 RoC&TFT: voting and discussion
  MicroElfMicroElf

There has been some questions about rules for WC3 both RoC and TFT. I wonna know your opinions. So please read this thread and vote. Any comments will be great as well.

Question #1: Timing for individual level runs.

Option A: RTA
Option B: in-game

Pros for in-game timer:
1) No need of external timer. So, easier to run
2) Final time is shown on final screen so there will be no arguing about halved seconds or something like that in close results. Also easier to check.

Potential problem might be is any ways to glitch in-game timer. But I don't know about any possibilities as long as we forbid saves. So I feel like in-game timing might be more convenient.

Question #2: Movies (In order to clarify: Deleting movies directory will only affect cinematics, not cutscenes).

Option A: allow deleting movies directory
Option B: forbid deleting movies directory

There are some known bugs with movies. First, they glitch at new OS and sometimes crash or freeze the game. Second, they glitch recording. As a common rule we shouldn't modify any original game files. But movies is not really a part of a game (I mean no gameplay, just video) and they can be deleted harmlessly. So, I think we definitely should allow that but wonna know your opinions first.

Question #3: Prologue in full game runs (RoC)

Option A: Prologue must be included
Option B: Prologue may be skipped

Argument for including is mostly that it is a part of the plot and the game.

Pros for skipping:
1) Even with the profile you can skip Prologue (there will be warning, but still you can skip). So in order to any% principle it doesn't look like necessary.
2) Probably prologue is not a very interesting part of a full-game run. We have enough rutine missions, so no need to expand it even more.
3) Full game run will be long as hell, so cut this 8 minutes 🙂

I feel like skipping prologue will be probably a bit better, but wonna your thoughts as well.

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For comfort you may copy message below and choose your options

Question #1: Timing for individual level runs. [A/B]
Question #2: Movies [A/B]
Question #3: Prologue in full game runs (RoC) [A/B]

 
  [user deleted]

Question #1: Timing for individual level runs. B
Question #2: Movies B
Question #3: Prologue in full game runs (RoC) B (if you can skip this part and still advance in game,why would we do it? )

 
  SavusukkaSavusukka

Question #1: Timing for individual level runs. - Option B: in-game
Using IGT would forbid saves which I don't like, but it's ILs so who's gonna waste time reloading anyway.
EDIT: Cody brought up the fact that you can wait in the start cutscene of some levels and the start of the level will be influenced. I feel that starting the timer after the cutscene is not in the spirit of speedrunning: from when you enter the level, you're spending extra time to complete it in order to get a faster time. This feels like timer manipulation, not fast playing. Therefore I vote for IGT, which factors in the starting cutscenes. Alternatively, timing rules for RTA could be changed to account for this.

Question #2: Movies - A: allow deleting movies directory
In a run you would skip them almost instantly anyways so it's not like you're changing the run dramatically. Plenty of other games allow similar things to prevent crashes/other problems.

Question #3: Prologue in full game runs (RoC) - B: Prologue may be skipped
If the category is meant to be Any%, there's no justification for requiring it. If it's meant to be All Campaigns, then it's clearly required. The basic speedrun category for most games should be Any%.

 
  COMRDYCOMRDY

Question #1: Timing for individual level runs. ...
The issue with doing in game is that the timing doesn't start the second you gain control. This means that movie time is played in (which if we delete movies would actually help balance this).

The problem with real time is that, again, the movies could cause an issue or in the instance of doing full campaign runs, the loading times!

Both have negative and positive affects and I don't know which one would be better. Sadly, if we do in game time I am going to have to redo my records 🙁

Question #2: Movies A
I have never done this and hadn't really thought about it or knew about it (although I am not surprised). I think we should delete them because of issues (like freezing) and because the movies get skipped anyway.

Question #3: Prologue in full game runs (RoC) B
Prologue is essentially a "bonus" to the game and I don't think it should be required for, what Savusukka said, our "Any%". If we call it "Full Game" (like how it is now) then yes, it should be included. Also, if it were to be called "All campaigns" then it should also be included. If it is "Any%" or "Full Campaign" then I don't see it necessary (I don't think "Full" is the same as "All"). I would suggest making two different categories for it but that seems like a nuisance to have two categories for ~8 minutes for a ~4 hour game. I guess it depends on how we want to name it.

 
  CrerisCreris

1. Probably ingame timer is better, because if you set the game to slower for whatever reason(there is a slider like that in options, dont forget, or you could hack the game to run faster), the ingame timer will sync with the game speed.

2. I am for deleting, its making running something like undead RoC basically impossible unless you want to monitor capture, which is really had idea for multitude of reasons(cinematics in the middle of the god damn campaign).

3. logical to skip imo, if you get prolog in full game, why not rexxar in TFT?

 
  SavusukkaSavusukka

I edited my answer to question #1 in my previous post.

Also just to clarify, deleting the movie directory affects the CINEMATICS, not the in-game cutscenes. Level start and end cutscenes will still be there, as well as the few missions that are just a cutscene. The deleted ones would be the cinematic movies usually found at the end of campaigns, such as Arthas' Betrayal or The Destruction of Dalaran.

 
  ROMaster2ROMaster2

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1) I'd do both, honestly, though I'm also someone who tries to keep track of more things than necessary.

When making the timing methods for Command & Conquer I ran into problems with both real and game time. Real time is generally the best method, but since this a PC game, load times can vary and be potentially unfair. Game time would have been the seemed to be the obvious choice, but then saving and reloading screws up the final time. Banning S&L is unfair and extremely punishing to those learning the game. I eventually settled with using a custom method: Real time minus the times between missions. This keeps track of the actually relevant parts of the run, including the saving and loading, without compromising the timer. I have my old Battle.net account back so I can make an auto-splitter to do this automatically like I have with a few C&C games already, and I'd offer to manually time everything that's been submitted thus far.

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2) While file manipulation is a dangerous thing to allow, it's apparent Blizzard's video files cause more problems than their worth and even risk killing a run, so deleting them seems like a fair decision.

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3) IIRC you can ignore the prologue and go straight into the Human campaign. While it is canonical to the story, it just serves as a tutorial for new players and can be rather annoying to keep dealing with in a full run. I'm not completely against it though.

 
  MicroElfMicroElf

@ROMaster2

I love the idea with auto-splitter. It should put all in equal situation. I mean those who have faster computer will not have advantage. One thing I worry about will it be easy to use? I mean if we allow to use this splitter we should be sure that everyone will be able to use it.

@Savusukka

Yes, we talking about deleting only cinematics, not cutscenes. I updated my first post to clarify this.

@Cody360c

Include final screen to your run so if we choose to switch to IGT for IL runs you will not need to rerun.
Howewer if we will move to auto-splitter than probably everyone will have to redo all their runs.

 
  ROMaster2ROMaster2

@MicroElf If the runner can run the game and LiveSplit on the same computer it's entirely automated. The only problem to worry about are the different versions since they don't all share the same memory mappings. Otherwise it's really easy to use.

And when are you getting the discord server? We got over 100 peeps now.

 
  COMRDYCOMRDY

@MicroElf
Have we came to a conclusion or are we waiting still?

Also, adding on to what @ROMaster2 said, a discord server would be pretty cool.

 
  MicroElfMicroElf

@Cody360c
It looks like everybody who are active now have explained their opinions.
Sadly, there were some people who ask me about timer, rules, etc. via skype but havn't got in discussion yet.
I'm gonna wait a little bit more and than will make anticipated adjustments.

About discord. I have registered account and took quick look on it but nothing more. It is app for communication and still beta. And everybody can create a 'server' (chat room?). I'm not sure I understand: what exactly do you want from me?

 
  ROMaster2ROMaster2

@MicroElf It's just an easier place to discuss the games, that's all. Chat rooms are easier for discussions than forums most of the time.

 
  ROMaster2ROMaster2

I'll be able to work on the auto-splitters/load-remover for Warcraft III soonish. I'm already struggling with StarCraft so it may take a while.

 
  Kain999Kain999

How long will you verify my full run Warcraft III:
The Frozen Throne all 4 campaigns Hard Difficulty? I submited it a month ago. I did not play for speed (24h 04m), but I was the first who submited single-segment run all 4 campaigns.

 
  MicroElfMicroElf

I saw your run a while ago (probably the day you posted it), but since ROMaster2 came to warcraft section with rules and all other changes - I'm not sure I have a right to verify new runs. It's not forbidden at all, but since some points are not clear for me - I don't want to verify wrong run or reject correct run.

So it's really better to contact with him. I'll try to help you on that.

From my point of view on existing rules bonus campaign is not a part of full game run. So, your time should be shortened to the moment when you finish the last Scourge campaign mission. I have no idea why it has not been verified (or rejected with the reason at least) that long though.

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Good to see first full game run! Great job on that! Speed doesn't matter that much, I mean it's the first one and definitely not easy to do in single-segment taking into consideration the overall duration. I hope it will be verified soon.

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