nvm i found it https://tak.itch.io/pipe

can you put it in the resources, I can't find it

I told zam alot of my thoughts re maggie soul jar change in stream, but wanted to gather them here. I think the idea needs work because:

(1) health is one of the major resources of the game, and soul/black hearts are a major part of this. Having alot of health in the form of armor hearts let's one play a little recklessly and take hits in exchange for going fast. I think this is a big part of isaac speedruns. It's funny in the subreddit when someone watches a clip of problems and says "wow he took a hit to haunt he's bad" when we all know "LOL HE'S SPEEDRUNNING DUMMY". In addition to reckless play, armor hearts add strategy to Devil Deal manipulation and Polaroid antics. I think these are another major part of the game that the proposed change would completely remove. In sum, you are exchanging a major resource for "perfect play" requirement, which ends up snowballing runs if done correctly.

(2) it renders items useless/affects balance too much. I think we came to guppy's paw, polaroid, whore, abaddon (although argument can be made to still take abaddon, although it renders you to one empty heart container, which is pretty dangerous in exchange for 1.5 damage) as useless items in this mod. With enough useless junk items already, this affects the balance of the game negatively. Additionally, it makes goathead insanely OP. It basically turns the run into an "all or nothing run". Zam commented on the snowball effect in stream, and I think this is really lame for speedruns. Especially if maggie is left in 14 char only, that would mean when you finish 9 characters, you start maggie. From there you either get completely screwed or get an insane snowball run. I don't think this is a workable system. Speedruns are designed to show consistent good times over many characters. In addition, I think it'll cause runners to reset only for "carry" item like cac/epic/knife or for black judas, so they get screwed over. You can see the problems and conflicts these issues can cause.

HOWEVER- all that being said I think it's a cool idea that needs a slight rework to stay balanced and fun. I suggested making DD penalty not so harsh, allowing .5 soul heart as armor, but these kinda seem like cop outs to the theme of the character. I don't really have any other ideas, either, so sorry if it sounds like I'm shitting on the concept without having any ideas myself to offer.

I like the idea. I think even a full 14 char schoolbag run could be fun (although obviously it's completely unbalanced).

This probably doesn't matter.

I think the only real con is "making the game too easy". But think about how this works in practice: fastest racers will choose Krampus head over the nail every time. The fastest runs will still have more risk to them, but also more speed. Some of the safety items have time cost as well(stan bible and book of rev). I don't think the easiness factor will eliminate the skill factor.

Anyways, I like the idea. Jud6s/Racing+ has always been about removing "trolliness", adding D-6 for strategic purposes, while trying to stay vanilla. I think the proposed addition doesn't depart TOO much from that ideology.

If you build it, they will come.

AKA, if you make a category ppl will probably run it.

7-11-14

Jud9s Classic or Jud9s but Maggie/Isaac is Eve

Jud9s+ with what Zam suggested

Just a suggestion, honestly have no preference. I'll probably try 7 char jud6s if I do any because it'll be the shortest.

In reply to the Azazel health change:

I think the change to Judas style health is too drastic. It also nerfs the ability to USE your black heart and rely on getting a health up in the boss to take your DD. Or to just play recklessly at all in the first two floors (fuck it, you'll probably get B2 Krampus anyways Kappa). But as you said, adding an additional black heart seems like it's too much of a buff.

Alternatively, what about giving him his 3 black hearts and .5 soul heart?

or even still, giving him 2 black hearts, a soul heart, and half a black heart (from left to right)?

This way, he could still use his black heart as a nuke, but it would still be at risk of losing his deal. This is without changing his overall health structure too drastically.

In reply to everything else: BloodTrail

People ran rebirth way after AB came out.

I vote add .5 soul heart to BB and Azazel because of what Krakenos said earlier.

Edit: and vote against adding coop baby, if that's up for debate too.

My opinion is that all Zam's tool does is prevent him from wasting time holding R (or menu restart). I think the WR should stand.

I do agree that it's a TAS. I think he should publish the tool to allow level playing field.

PLEASE VOTE

Because of the recent rule change regarding S&Q, and because IOTR uses mainly the same rules as SRL, it has become a popular (and obviously the best) strat to S&Q when taking a hit in a dangerous room as the lost.

Obviously it's better to waste 10 seconds redoing a room than to die and have to start over. There is a certain amount of judgment involved as to just risk finishing the room if you think you can complete it without taking a hit.

However, I believe the rule change was intented to allow certain strats like procing speedups, spawning super-greed, and the grey block clip. I don't believe this strat was intended by the rule change.

Further, I believe this strat immensely cheapens the Lost. He effectively becomes a cannon, as opposed to a glass cannon. He can take unlimited devil deals, and with S&Q has virtually unlimited health. In my opinion, it removes all skill from Lost races.

For these reasons, I propose banning S&Q strats ONLY from the lost, or in the alternative banning S&Q strats for the lost ONLY AFTER losing your holy shield (this way the intended strats could still be utilized).

I proposed the change in the IOTR general chat, and I propose it for SRL as well. I'll refer the IOTR chat to this post for discussion. Obviously a rule change in IOTR won't bind SRL change or vice versa, but I think it should be consistent. I understand it's a little fucked to change the rules mid-tourney, but I think it's for the best to do so.

P.S. full disclosure - yes this post was prompted by Moon and Scav's race, but I think it's a valid rule change regardless of that race, and I had been considering proposing the change before the race. The outcome of the race IS what prompted me to post this, in all fairness.

Right. But my original point is that it removes being fucked by RNG early while still being a risky strategy. I didn't mean to say that it's less risky than not using coop at all (because of course your run is dead at that point). Sorry if that was not conveyed properly?

In most situations it puts you to half a heart. So the risk is dying.

Sure thing. By risk v. reward, I mean you get the reward of a free devil deal, but you are put down to .5 heart (risking death). It's the same idea of DD's in general (paying life for a good item), but to an extreme. You rely on either finding health quickly (RNG) or perfect play (skill). By this logic, I really think it fits with the speedrunning lore/meta/what-have-you.

Regarding the keyboard vs. controller, I'm just saying that: 1) I don't think one particular runner (and I don't mean to single out karolmo, I just mean ANY single runner) not having a controller is a reason to make a rule banning it for everyone, and 2) there are advantages and disadvantages using keyboard and controller, and the runner chooses to accept those advantages/disadvantages when they "choose their weapon" (so to speak).

I will try and explain what I mean by "put a damper on the community". Realistically, there are about 10-20 runners skilled enough (IMHO, no offense meant to any runner) to compete for 7-char WR. Probably half of them use coop baby. I imagine that some runners who use coop will say "Screw 1-player, I will only run 2-player". Hence, the runners are polarized and the competition for 7-char is reduced. Obviously I don't know if this would actually happen, I could be completely wrong. It's only my prediction and opinion. /shrug It could very well happen that each category is vigorously ran. Do you plan on running 2-player if it becomes a thing?

Regarding them being interesting, I'll explain the example I was referencing above. You start a knife (which is really good, but not that powerful without damage ups). You can spawn a coop-baby, and sync it with your movement (via controller options in the menu). This essentially gives you 20/20 knife. But it's very easy to de-sync the coop baby (walking against rocks, or fighting Gurdy, for example, desync's the baby). https://gfycat.com/ForkedWeepyAidi << here's a good example. And there may be other things that simply haven't been explored for fear of the no coop baby ban-hammer. Who knows what glitches could be out there that aren't discovered?

Like I say, I'm not really a runner so it's unfair for my vote to be taken into account when deciding. But I'm glad to voice my opinion :)

Disclaimer: I don't speedrun more than Jud9s (which I haven't even put a PB down) so yes I'm a filthy casual voicing his opinion. I don't want it to count as an official vote but I'd like to comment.

Don't ban coop baby. Why? Making separate categories will likely put a damper on the community. It will degrade the already slim competition that exists for char runs. I think if a consensus can't be made it should be separated (instead of outright banned), but ultimately I think it's a bad idea. Here's why:

1. Coop babies, while definitely super phony, take away SOME of the RNG of early BB devil deals, but it's a risk vs. reward strategy. Since Isaac is a very risk vs reward game, I think it's an interesting way to make the game faster. If brain can put down the WR he has WITHOUT coop, imagine what he could do WITH coop.

2. It's not game-breaking. Separate categories like the one suggested are created usually to ban game-breaking glitches/work-arounds (like the Boshy WrongWarp) that make the game no longer fun/difficult. As shown by the current WR, the game is still VERY hard to beat that quickly. Why make it harder when there is an interesting (albeit phony and less skill-based) way of getting rid of some of the harshness of the game? I think that is the essence of speedrunning (as Brain quoted Elad) and it shouldn't be ruled out.

3. Keyboard vs. Controller. There are pros and cons to both. Keyboard users can more easily use mouse for Epic Fetus. Controller users must use D-Pad or sacrifice speed to the joystick. Spike corner tiptoes are (arguably) easier on controller. Controller users can more easily spawn coop baby. I'm sure there are more examples that I'm not thinking of. Most keyboard players probably own a controller, and if they don't there are cheap options to get one that will do the job for coop.

4. Coop babies are just interesting, fresh, and fun. I'm all for bringing fresh plays to the community. Coop baby sync is viable for having a double knife for the first floor, but again it's risky! This mechanic I feel could lead to other exploits that runners haven't really explored because they afraid of the backlash (i.e. run being invalidated). Speedrunning is ultimately for fun and I think if you can get past the phony-ness of coop baby you'll see it's an interesting mechanic that doesn't change TOO much that it should be outlawed or made a separate category.

Anyways, that's my two cents (take it or leave it). GL w/ the runs bois. I'll keep watching regardless.

Just wanted to add that since "SRL Rules" are being applied, Save and Quit strats are now acceptable on SRL. They should thus be acceptable for this speedrun category.

I vote to lift the ban. I think it adds small, yet interesting strategies that aren't too complicated to understand or learn and aren't outside the realm of "fairness" (like the old reasons for the ban).

poop poop fart?

I would just add that with the added difficulty in dodging, and the health stolen by the coop baby, it's much more likely to lose your devil deal and isn't worth it unless you've stacked up soul hearts. Oh and it seems your baby also drops a bomb, so you are using 2 bombs each use.

what barry said

My opinion, for what it's worth, is to ban read-only (and any mid-run file manip) but allow overflow.

My reasoning is that overflow is a game mechanic. Therefore, it shouldn't be banned. Theoretically you could set up three files with 999 machines prior to your run without any file manipulation.

But mid-run file manip is not a game mechanic. File prep is just a shortcut to starting a run. Mid-run file manip, however, is beyond the scope of what anyone could theoretically do without touching game files at all.

In this scenario, the runner has the choice to overflow his first two machines. Or overflow all three, if he really wants.

I have an alternate proposal, which may be a discussion for another post. I propose making separate categories. Vanilla (no file manip, no co-op baby, no S+Q strats, no trackers) and Chocolate (these strats allowed). Of course the size of the community might not warrant separate categories, but it's an idea. As far as enforceability of trackers: it'd be an honor system, as this community has lived w/ the honor system this long w/o many hiccups.

Anyway that's my 2 cents, take it or leave it.