EnglandGonna try cover as many basis as I can and also talk on the idea of a Classic variable:
So responding to Lorno, I'm gonna pick a few points and respond because overall it seems like a lot of the same point which is majority, "But I think there is too many thought that can be confirmed or can be denied" and for the most part, I agree, definitely. I am putting past experience, knowledge from other games and conversations with other people in and outside the community to piece together my stance because that's what I think will happen if a variable is added, as everyone pushing for the variable is doing. I've said this in streams and in discords but no matter if a variable is added or not, I hope this entire fiasco causes more people, new and old, to pick up the controller.
As for a few specific points thought, I saw you respond to my first point with "Chasing for a TAless WR would be like chasing for Accel WR, really isn't worth of notice" which as I state in my 4th point, I completely disagree. An entirely different character type changes the physics of the game massively, you can tell this from people who have only ever played one type their entire time playing, switch over to another and completely flop, it's why Speed struggled to reach its peak for such a long time.
"3). For this point, I think the issue with TA is the insane amount of time you gain with a really small effort to learn the shortcut. That is not 100% consistent anyways. Tiziano wins only 10 seconds per lap". In my opinion, ANY amount of skill needs to be respected, if Tiny Arena were all luck, or you didn't need to do any inputs to hit it, I'd at least understand a variable because that is entirely out of your control. It shouldn't be about how much time it gains or loses, it should be about the quantity of luck because if this debate is about how much time it gains or loses, this feels like people are getting up in arms because of the entire nature and ideology of speedrunning which maybe I sound like an old man shouting at clouds, but I think again, that's why it opens holes to your point
Finally for Lorno's arguments, "6). Regarding this point, I think the decision to implement the filter will be more beneficial to top runners, because those use the skip. New runners will just see it as a filter and probably not care about that". This is a totally valid opinion, I didn't care to mention that new runners might just not give a shit, that could be what happens. That's my bad for seeing it so binary
Redhot's post was a nice read and I really only had one major qualm with his argument:
"I think you're passing the wrong impression about the grind needed for both categories. TA skip adds more variance to the run, which has the side effect of encouraging playing safer in other levels. If both categories are grinded to its limits, a classical run would be more frame grind in terms of time save in each level, while a TA run would mainly focus on the bigger picture."
Now if this is the case, and I believe it is, I do agree with your point, but if this is the case, why would a variable fix that? A lot of my core argument from my former 2 posts and this one is that in a bubble, speedrunning is and always will be about self-improvement and leaderboards should be a place to share your run, not to create competition with random people and with that in mind, adding a variable feels like the motivation for this game will slip into a competitive feeling and if that is what you want, then I implore you to go ahead but this is majorly why I just think a variable, any variable, would demean that. The work of everyone who has tried to improve this game and their times would be diminished because people want to be 2nd place instead of 20th and that feels odd to me. I know people like Faceoff have said it would give them motivation, but you aren't gaining motivation to improve your time, it's motivation to go up a leaderboard and that really doesn't sit right with me personally. I don't think anyone who suggested or is pushing for this is ill-willed and want to just snag a free boost up the leaderboard with a variable on but that sure is how it looks and that's in the end how it's going to feel when people are having 'NO TA WR ATTEMPTS' in their titles and if that seems a little facetious, look at Redhots following statement. "I don't think a separation would demean the work from someone who grinded TA, both WRs would require as much grind if enough effort is put into them." If a variable is made, the game is no longer being pushed as much or potentially at all because runners will be going back in time, removing a found skip and improving the run as if nothing ever happened and I used "pushed" in a state of, the physical limit this game can get to, if the option to circumvent a trick is made, new and old runners have the option to not even try, conversations of 'oh don't even do TA, it's not worth it' will echo through the halls and Any% NMG TA WR will be a wasteland. Could it still potentially be a wasteland without a variable? Certainly. But if you give people the option, this targets new runners to completely ignore the normal category entirely and that feels odd to me
(I am so sorry for the paragraph, I will wrap up quick)
Do I want to see this implimented? No, not at all.
If it's going to be implimented, would I rather see No TA or Classic? Classic 100%, it at least future-proofs the variable in a way No TA wouldn't
Finally, and this might sound fucking crazy so bear with me and feel free to call me a dumbass, instead of a 'Classic' variable, why not a 'No Item' variable? And by that, I mean remove any skip, intended or not, that requires any items to use. TA, Tizi, Temple cut, it future proofs any other 'RNG' lead skips and also removes RNG from the run almost altogether. Such as getting early masks in Coco Park and Dragon Mines or getting boost items. It becomes a more skilled category whilst keeping the entire nature of what you're speedrunning, it won't change anything for Classic runners bar Temple and will feel like a new experience. Maybe it's stupid but just consider it potentially as it feels like it's a new experience to anything else on the leaderboards and kinda resembles 'Items'/'No Items' in games like MKWii
Thanks for reading, this has been a very interesting debate and no matter what I still stand by a vote being REQUIRED before any change is made <3
Just to clarify a few things,
The emu boards were brought upon the ban of epsxe and that's definitely something I didn't mention however it was certainly created as a place of accessibility so people didn't have to compare an obviously slower time to normal boards and maybe I'm incorrect in the effectiveness of player retention but from what it has looked like, no long-term runners who weren't already running/planning on running when the split happened came from it
As for Crodi's point on my 1st, 2nd and 7th argument, I definitely agree that the 1st point can be taken as account of either side but the 2nd and 7th I personally can't see. I struggle seeing how the work put in by people who used TA can be done either way, I don't see how it's somehow a benefit for the people who have struggled for TA to be done. As for my 7th, I do state in that point that "In the 'benefit' this might give top players" so I see why you're saying that but my thought process was that it feels like it's going to give less to top players than it would take away to a community of new and older players
Also my circle jerk comment was me just stating the obvious, not me taking any shots, no mods have been ill-willed during this, I'm just hoping this is dealt with appropriately was all I was saying
Before I get slack, I've been apart of this community for a while, Sprash and CTR and also I only found of this conversation today hence why I didn't immediately post my opinion. With that out the way...
IMHO Adding a TA Variable is a bad, almost inherently damaging, addition to the boards. I've gone back and forth with a lot of people on this topic and I think I've gained a pretty solid foundation of my points so:
1). This point has been made many times by others but it definitely stands. You CAN do speedruns of CTR without TA skip, variable or not, and a variable will change nothing to do with that. In fact, what it will do is allow people to chase for 'No TA WR' which leads me to my second point
2). A 'No TA WR' honestly feels like it demeans the work of people who decide to push the game and Tiny Arena. You completely bypass the need for grinding, pushing a trick which is part of the speedrun for an arbitrary variable because now Any% NMG isn't the only fish that the cat can grab
3). At what point does the line get drawn? TA is a 'skewed' mixture of luck and skill. But when WR for both the variable categories have Tiziano in them, what then? Will that also be a 'skewed' mix of luck and skill or is that okay? No matter how much 'skill' is in TA skip, there is some skill and that requires a level of respect, circumventing that can only lead to a hole
4). I saw some people compare this to variables on other games such as Spyro 2. Now whilst I respect that thought, it feels slightly misguided. Spyro 2 ER is a new variable because of it's entire re-route and most importantly, fireball. Fireball completely changes the way the speedrun is done, from ignoring revisits of levels like Fracture and changing simple but crucial things like flame charges and pot collecting. Case in point, have a look at the difference in ER and No ER Aquaria, it is night and day. Also in terms of variables, the variable for character type in CTR is also a good use of a variable. In the characters case, all 4 types completely change the physics, lines and in some cases, the way skips are even done, hence why a variable is a solid choice because it feels like a new experience whereas removing TA is playing for 20 tracks and doing 1 track slightly different which isn't a new experience, that is just not doing a single trick
5). If this becomes a variable for Any% NMG, it then has to be a variable for every category. Otherwise we are just nit-picking at one category for the sake of 'more people run it' but from the looks of it, and maybe I stand corrected, people only seem to care about this because it's the most contested and it's more about the category than the trick itself
6). The point that MANY people have made that this will attract more people to the boards because TA is no longer pseudo-necessary feels slightly flawed in my eyes at that comes from the past of the Emu and All TT boards. Both of those were to make the game more accessible and increase the player pool or at least increase the longevity of people playing. Yet the people who were already playing still played and nobody knew came from the split. You can see from the quantity of runs in recent, it was a huge burst when it first came to fruition and then little droplets here and there in the next 80% of it's life cycle and I respect the want for accessibility but, and onto my final point
7). I think this can only push people away. I've seen multiple people, who I shan't name, say that a filter would make them stop playing just because they feel like not using TA skip is a dirty thing, you've been pushed onto an island of your own and that kinda sucks. In the 'benefit' this might give top players, this will segregate and push apart newer and upcoming runners because the better runners feel hard done by the trick
tl;dr I think adding a variable can only hinder the boards nevermind add more people to the community even if the intention is good and wholesome, it hasn't worked before and I don't think it will now.
Thanks for reading, please don't give me shit, also no matter what a vote should be made because democracy matters. It shouldn't just be a mod circle jerk, ty
edit: Skipless should be a main cat 100000%. The fact that a TA filter was even concieved before Skipless is a main cat is crazy brazy gaming to me
Yeah that's totally fine. Just as long as no handicaps are changed.
Sadly not, no. Sorry.
Personally I'm not too sure how well this works as a speedrun. First off it's very RNG, there is skill in seeing patterns but it's incredibly RNG based which wouldn't be a huge problem but the game doesn't have an end, it's more so a point based game which isn't really common on speedrun.com so I would possibly urge to saying get 3 or 4 more people to run it and I can put it on the boards but for now, I think it's too arbitrary. Hope this helps, thanks for the suggestion
I'm removing all runs without video evidence and only allowing runs with video proof from here on in the full-game categories. Sorry for any runs that are removed in the process but I think a rules revamp should be made.
Any grievances, feel free to message me. Thanks.
1). Should Chameleon Run Deluxe on Switch be made as a seperate game and board since it has more levels, more worlds, different level order and is played with controller?
2). What does repetitive switch actually mean cause it isn't a mode in the game and it seems kinda dumb?
3). I've done a run of Deluxe World 1 which is 5 levels and if Deluxe is to become a seperate board, can I become a mod of said board?
a Crash Team Racing bingo set has been added to https://www.bingosync.com/ officially thanks to myself and Hypnoshark and I thought I'd publicly announce it in the forums to just get the word out. along with doing a bingo, you can request ideas here, give advice/critique and share opinions on what it's like. have fun playing and don't be shy to ask others for races or even take a solo bingo with a timer. thanks for reading!
lmaao i just expect this place to be dead
Tbh the point of doing all of this was to make the point of doing runs with characters other than N. Gin/Coco and recently Dingo/Tiny, is the push more competition and evolve the meta. Using variables is borderline hiding away the aspect of what makes increasing the category list in the first place. Yes the stats will be skewed but i believe it is in the best interests of the community and as for the 'All' category, whilst I personally have no gripes with it since Accel and Speed have now been discovered to be very similar, I wouldn't be opposed to removing it just out of pure lack of need with the slight help of easy viewing. But in my eyes, using variables would be a waste to the work already done. I feel like if we can come to that compromise instead of just destroying all the work that has been done by the mods and just since it seems more suitable for such a lively community, I genuinely feel we could have a great looking board.
^ did my job for me lol
sorry for the long time, i didn't get a notif on the forum. fixed it
It's just a theory; A GAME THEORY! Thanks for reading:
Don't take anything I say as truth as I am just a dumb boy but myself and Hypno did some backroom research and I believe we came to a conclusion. So I'll start with what is happening through each part. You save, exit out and start doing the battle mode glitch. After 2 battles, you exit and get warped to Gemstone Valley. Now, you are in a battle mode state but in the adventure mode hub so the game is confused. Where this trick differs to the credits warp is that the credits play as a trigger for adventure mode and can only be accessed via adventure mode since there is no level or way of reaching credits so it gives you battle mode properties and adventure mode items and collectibles. This glitch places you in a battle mode glitch exclusively as there is no trigger for adventure mode properties as of yet. So you head into Skull Rock and here, instead of beating the level, you exit at your first possible chance. Now due to some reseach from Hypno, if you decide to beat Skull Rock, you collect the purple token, you leave the level and you are placed fully into an adventure mode state. But what happens when you exit before beating Skull Rock is that you skip that trigger dissallowing you to exit the battle mode state and since this isn't a warp into your savefile, it has nothing it can do but to believe you are in battle mode.
Now this is where it gets interesting because when you come out from Skull Rock, the highest % save on your memory card gets loaded until you enter a level from the hub. Originally, we believed that it skipped a trigger to place it back in adventure mode so you are in a temporary battle mode state however we have theorized a more tempting idea. So the reason we get the highest % things loaded is because Skull Rock is a battle mode level and outside of adventure, battle mode is the only place it is accessible. Since we are in the battle mode state at this moment, and we did some research to back this up, the game looks for the highest % adventure load like it would in battle so it can decifer what characters and stages you have unlocked. So when you leave Skull Rock, it believes you are in a battle mode load state where you are temporarily loading in keys and trophies from other places but we figured out that this state is a hybrid. We call it a "Battle Rock State" and this gives a Skull Rock property to the next track you enter. This essentially means that we are in 2 states at once, just like the Credits Warp mentioned earlier. The reason we call it a hybrid of Skull Rock state is because when you enter another track after exiting Skull Rock, whenever you collect a wumpa, the game assigns that value to a crystal and after collecting it, you recieve the purple token from Skull Rock and this places you back into the adventure mode state.
Now if this is what happens, and it very well might be, I can't see how this is NG+ because this glitch is exploiting the fact that the outside modes of adventure determine the glitch and not adventure mode itself. Along with all the prior reasoning stated from others. But that's my thoughts.
Tl;dr - I'm dumb but its not NG+ imo
aight adding it now lads. ty for the suggestion. final day for mod request btw. Quick Edit: So I labelled them as "All" categories but the thing is, barely any event have like a time kinda thing. Like I don't really want to throw in things like Long Jump for example since, yes it can be timed, but its gonna be practically useless. So I'll add in "All Track Events" to the IL's and "All Dream IL's" which will be done RTA but added up with IGT but I won't add anything else sadly
