Texas, USAI'd argue it would be pointless for us to add a jump category, seeing as there already exists an active website and community dedicated to TF2 jump maps.
Anything we do here would be dwarfed by the already existing group in terms of skill, activity, and knowledge of strategies.
See: https://jump.tf/
I propose we ban the use of this exploit during pre-wave set up/when the timer is not running. If someone wants to do it once timer starts, I guess that is fair game so long as they don't start the process until the first wave starts.
Allowing it while timer is going would also prevent someone from getting a disqualified run by accidentally doing it during normal play. It can happen on accident at times, and again you'll only get a handful of credits if done on accident.
"Timing starts when the first wave begins. Timing ends when the last round ends and the victory screen shows."
This rule has served us well for determining when we start the timer on MvM runs. Sure you can technically play the game somewhat before timer starts, but the only real use during this pre-wave time is sticky, and maybe building, placement. But what if I told you there was an exploit, that with unlimited time to setup, would make records easier to beat? An exploit that we need to ban...
Enter, negative buy backs!
This exploit is only possible as scout, and also requires the cooperation of a medic.
A brief explanation on how death/buybacks work in MvM When a player dies in MvM a counter will appear at the top of their screen saying they will respawn in X seconds or to press H to respawn instantly. For every second the counter goes down, the cost to respawn instantly goes down by five credits. Time will vary by mission, but Scout will always have a two second respawn time.
A brief explanation on how revive works in MvM Instead of respawning or buying back in, if there is a medic a player can instead be revived. Upon death, they drop a revive cabin which medics must heal to revive the player. The amount they must heal to revive the player is variable. It starts at 50% of the player health¹, and increases by 10hp for each successful revive with no max cap on amount required. The act of being revived pauses respawn, but the timer and cost to respawn continue to go down. If the timer hits zero, the player doesn't respawn until they are either fully revived by the medic, or decline revive and respawn normally. During the revive process, a player can decline or buy in at any time. (¹This includes modifiers. Examples being 110hp for battalions soldier, or 35 for kunai spy.)
The Exploit This exploit takes advantage of all of the above, and a bug related to Scout. It only affects scout due to how his respawn time is hard coded to two seconds, and isn't variable based on mission like the other classes. By having a medic continually start and stop the revive process on a scout, you effectively stall their respawn. If you do this long enough, the cost to buy back in actually goes into the negative. Note that the hud will still display a positive number of seconds to respawn, but it ends up costing negative money. Approximately -5 credits per second that you stall the respawn.
In normal circumstances you'll maybe be able to get -5 to -15 credits during an actual game. But, you can get much higher if you try. Say you have a scout suicide several dozen times before the game even starts, to increase the healing required to fully revive them. Then say you have a medic keep start/stop reviving them for a few minutes. You continue this until the wave starts, and have the scout buyback in once the wave starts. You could theoretically spend 10 minutes before the wave starts and have scout buyback in for -3000 credits. Or twenty minutes for -6000 credits.
They could then keep playing scout, to get some easy time saves on early mission tanks that you usually have little credits to damage with, or retry/refund in as another class for more raw bot killing power for possible time saves. You could even do this with three people if you wanted.
The catch is, this requires considerable setup time. Time during which nothing skillful or actually hard is required. It is just killbind and be revived for several minutes. In the video above, I was doing this on a local server with host_timescale 5 for it to be faster. In real world mann up servers, it would take much longer to get higher credit amounts. Time which, at the present, wouldn't count against the runs.
Currently the rules allow such a exploit to be used. No one has actually done it so far in runs...but nothing is stopping it from happening. I propose we ban this, else if someone takes the time to do it, anyone who wants to have a shot at beating any future records set would have to spend several minutes doing tedious nothing just to get on a level playing field.
This is going to be my final post regarding new categories, and it's mainly to clear up what I see as confusion and just general observations.
Nowhere have I suggested banning crit/uber canteens. In both categories I've suggested banning all canteens. This includes Building Upgrade/Ammo Refill/Teleport to Spawn as well. It's silly and downright preferential/biased to ban only crit/uber canteens in the no cheese category. Sure, two of the other options are basically useless and hardly ever used, but if you don't see building upgrade to be just as cheesy as crit/uber, you're wrong. Wrong or, possibly worse, lazy.
As for additional restrictions on a stock weapons only category, let's not say canteens should be allowed because of the category name. I can make an argument just as easily that they're not weapons at all and are single use cosmetic/action items that just grant a temporary condition and therefor shouldn't be allowed in a category that is strictly "weapons." I stand by the notion that canteens should be banned within this category. Let the category and resulting runs showcase the best possible times that nothing but stock can deliver, with no additional assistance.
Lastly, there is a reason I've made my suggestions the way they are. I've explained the reasoning previously with regards to revive, so I'm not going to bother repeating myself. I feel the suggestions I've offered up are the only ways, or at the very least the core ways, to make these categories actually different from the standard any% one in a meaningful way.
As it stands with what appears to be the popular opinion here, I don't see any reason to have a stock category if canteens are allowed. It'll just be a slightly less efficient med/demo combo than any%. Because with a good player, stock is basically going to be just as good as most other weapons, and the margins are even smaller when you're going to be spamming canteens.
No Cheesing: Revive can and should be considered cheesing, as even without the ability med can and still will be used in the no cheese category. His primary job will still essentially be to pump out crits on the demo/soldier. Not to mention I specifically neglected to add rules against abusing bot AI, such as med/spy combos. You're still going to have ubersaw, and shit anyway, so he'll be pumping ubers still.
As for resisting the urge, well that's on the player to resist the urge to do so. People are going to have to resist the urge to buy back as is, so it's not like resisting doing something is a difficult task. Additionally, I included this as a way to ban a variety of revive related bugs and exploits. I didn't care to elaborate on it, because the core functions of the mechanic can and should be considered cheese in it's own right. I mean, how often do you expect to be dying anyway that it would really matter?
Stock Only: I mean personally I'm fine with mandating that you use the actual default/normal quality stock weapons for that category. My point here was mainly that even in a stock only situation, the original should be banned because it does have some benefits that can be abused despite being, for all intents and purposes, functionally identically.
@Snake1326
No, having rule sets where X is allowed as long as Y isn't active is just bad practice. For people who don't want to deal with having to try and take records that involve scottish demo owning the game, there will be the stock only category anyway. Which I think will honestly be the most fun and skill based of all, assuming my suggestion to ban canteens here is used. Else they'll just boil down to the same.
Sure, new categories would be good, and might draw me back in.
But cheesing needs to be more defined. Outright ban on all canteens, not just uber/crit. I'd go so far as to say revives should be ruled out as well. Obviously sentry buster glitches need to be blacklisted. I would also classify current airblast as cheesing, as you should not be able to throw around boss robots like they're ragdolls. So I'd say you're not allowed to use it to pit or otherwise trap boss robots. Think, pitting Nukesalot or EE Heavy boss.
As far as stock only, it's worth noting that technically the canteen is now a stock item, unlike initially when it was achievement based. I do think it'd be worth not allowing canteens for a stock run, and instead relying only on the actual stock weapons and their abilities, else you'll still just end up with a demo/medic spamming crit canteens all the time again.
tl;dr My suggestions:
No Cheesing:
- No Gas Passer
- No Medigun Shield
- No Airblasting Bosses
- No Glitching Sentry Busters
- No Upgrade Exploits*
- No Canteens
- No Refunds
- No Buybacks
- No Revives
*Including but not limited to, extra firing speed/damage on weapons that otherwise are not supposed to have them, as well as any current/future credit exploits that exist/may be introduced in subsequent updates.
Stock Only:
- Only Stock/Default Weapons Allowed*
- No Canteen Use**
*This includes reskins that don't change how the weapon behaves. Pan/Ham/Prinny type weapons would be allowed, as they function the same as stock weapons. The Original however would not be allowed, as it does change how rockets are fired despite having no other different attributes. **Let the runs be based purely on the abilities of the actual stock weapons themselves.
