Illinois, USAHello to anyone that may read this. For history tracking and updates to the Spider-Man vs Kingpin Genesis run, making this post for some recent updates listed below:
-Normal Any% (GEN/MD) renamed to "Normal Warpless (GEN/MD)" Thanks to the Needleman08 Glitch, which in turn surfaced the BaconOmelette Skips, it's been discovered that you can skip the last boss fight against Kingpin by leveraging a setup, created by BaconOmelette, on the final level. The specific final level skip involves setting up Electro to kill Spider-Man, while grabbing a health pick up on the same frame Spider-Man is expected to die from an electric projectile. This then allows the player to skip Kingpin and go directly to the end credits of the game.
As a result, this requires an update to the existing category rules that was looking for a final hit on Kingpin to stop the RTA timing. Lastly, to preserve the historical runs for the game, the category named "Normal Any% (GEN/MD)" has been renamed to "Normal Warpless". The main impact to come from this is that my (Cypherin) runs that include the BaconOmelette skips have been moved to a new Category (detailed briefly below). No impacts occurred to Needleman08's runs, as there were no stage skips performed.
The category isn't being renamed to "credit warp", as the BaconOmelette skip only lets the player skip one stage at a time (as far as we're aware at the time of writing this). So to skip the last boss fight, the player has to be on the last stage.
-New "Normal Any% (GEN/MD)" category As mentioned up above, a new category has been created for Normal Any% run of Spider-Man vs Kingpin (Genesis/MD). With the creation of the category, we can now see the awesomeness that's been captured in BaconOmelette's WR runs as soon as they are uploaded and verified.
Hello all,
Providing this post just make mention of two leaderboard setting changes I made today:
- Updated time input field to accept milliseconds (with trevyz's recent PB and tie with the current WR time of 11:36. Congratulations, trevyz! And apologies for the late verifications for your recent runs on my part).
- Updated the "allow comments" setting to only allow comments from runners with a time on a board here in SRC.
For #1, treyvz and Shime, let me know if you want to dispute the times I provided and want the runs re-timed, or if you have additional questions. For #2, if there's any active runners here, let me know if you are ok with the update made regarding run comments. Or if this should be changed.
Thank you for reading and take care.
I'm not sure of any maps out there, as well. There are probably tools you can find online that would help in creating game maps. But if going a "more manual" route, without any explicit map tools, I'd imagine using something like Photoshop, and though tedious, formulate a "grid" where you can paste screen captures of each part of the underworld map.
In short, I'll go with the majority of what the current runners are leaning towards.
More detailed - 2. I waited a bit because I'm not the best when it comes to the handling/knowing what to do with emulators. Seems like Retroarch is a standard that's appearing on other Genesis leaderboards, even ones I mod. But I question it only because the NES community doesn't like it. Makes me question if it's fool-proof. But besides my thought, I'll lean with what Chubbus listed above.
- I personally think the board should be separated, as I feel these skips are just the beginning. Now, do I know what other skips are going to come? No. But seeing the work you, A-Frame, BaconOmelette, and now Sonikkustar are putting into this, I feel like the game will break further, and quickly (unless you all were to stop/take a break).
With ALL that said though, I'm also for keeping the board as-is for now (probably face palming at this point, I know I know...I'm sorry!! lol). I'm going to miss the adrenaline rush of going through Phalanx 4 and some other levels in a speedrun if we're skipping all over the place. Which is why I thought to split the board, so for people that like the NC movement in a run and for everyone that absolutely LOVES Phalanx 4, like myself, they can still have that without being penalized, in a sense, because everyone else has incorporated the skips.
Ultimately, I'll go with what the majority goes with - my vote is to keep it as-is, no splitting, for now.
- I've no real comment on the bounty at this time. I personally like that the top ones were extended through the year and people can compete back and forth for them. I tend to hop all over the place with speedrun/casual playthroughs/streams. So it gives me flexibility to do that. If this somehow were to change tomorrow, though, I would not be opposed - again, whatever the community wants to move with.
I think the "Any%" was included due to the various skips that occur in the game, but I'm not entirely sure on that myself. But you can refer to other boards that have "Any%" and then have "Any% Glitchless".
But now you have me wondering if categories should exist for Any% Glitchless? If there's an interest for that? Any% Glitchless would be no clips through the ground on stage 2, no clip through the wire on the forge right before Demona, no Demona quick kill, to say the least. Not sure off the top of my head what else to add.
If my opinion counts, even though I don't actively run this game (PB'd recently thanks to Big 20 to a 10...22, I think? I need to highlight and submit), I think savestates should NOT be included, for the fact that something new could crop up tomorrow that no one has considered nor tested.
Taking for example Metroid and how different consoles have an impact on patterns. Has something like this been tested? If someone tells me this has been tested - ok then, I'd like to know what other tests have been performed. There feels like there are unknown factors that can come in, for any game, when you're not playing on original hardware/actual cart/flash cart vs emulator non-original hardware etc., and I wonder if someone can truly say "it's all been tested". So I opt out of the use of savestates, to keep it close to "even enough" ground for everyone. To the point of the RNG lock vs RNG non-lock category, and contrary to "even enough ground", I vote to have a non-lock category.
If the non-lock is a miscellaneous category, that's fine, as most people seem to prefer the RNG lock. Sure, I can get salty when I die in a run due to RNG, and I love execution/skill-based runs. But when the RNG lock was found, for me personally, it sort of took the "wind" out of the run. Imagine, there's a grand race across an ocean, and somehow the weather could be manipulated to make the wind blow in the direction you always want. That's nice, but it takes away from the innovation of the routing that could happen, as everyone will race the same from point A to B. I'm all for execution and skill-based runs, but when it's there from the start, not manipulated by outside means.
To be clear, I respect the runners that have obtained their times with the RNG lock, and I like the RNG lock myself. But I would really love to see someone get that time that's potentially faster than the RNG lock category, knowing they braved the wild and crazy ocean despite what was thrown at them. It could take forever and a day to get there, fair enough. But I think the option should be allowed for someone to go for it and get that time.
I made an update to my original post regarding when the rule update was to go in. I should have estimated the date a bit better than Sept 7th, so it's been updated to Sept 15th, but this might change again.
Talking with the Sega community, I've received mix feedback regarding Kega Fusion, where some list it in the rules for their games, and others don't. But all emulators have some kind of faster timings and more lag reduction than original console. Here are the timing comparisons between emulators for reference: https://tinyurl.com/y5fb8r2d
For us, for Gargoyles, you all are the community. And definitely listening, we'll include Kega Fusion and follow a similar emulator rule set that borrows from Sonic 3 & Knuckles and community feedback. If the rules don't quite apply to Gargoyles, then we can reassess again. I will say we need to reduce the allowed emulators, to reduce the extra factors that come in when new emulators are introduced. Where you've mentioned something "should be recommended", we'll make it recommended and revisit at a later date if the rules need to be updated again around the recommendations.
So with that, here's what the update will look like. Please feel free to leave comments if you agree/disagree:
"Emulator Rules: The following unofficial emulators are allowed (Here are the timing comparisons between emulators for reference: https://tinyurl.com/y5fb8r2d):
- Kega Fusion 3.64 - Deprecated, but allowed for accessibility and ease of use
- Genesis Plus GX (standalone or through Retroarch, BizHawk, specify) - Recommended, but faster than console
- Blastem (standalone or through Retroarch, BizHawk, specify) - Seems more accurate than GPGX, still in development
For Fusion (only 1 this is needed for) - FPS Visible in the bottom of the window. - Text in the bottom right either showing: - Soft Reset - Hard Reset - x Startup (where x is either "Genesis", "MegaCD" or "Master System") (Shime, to answer your question, the recording should start before your included reset)
Retroarch/BizHawk - Showing the Retroarch Menu that displays the Genesis Plus GX core and version in the bottom left. (If not shown at the start of the run, please provide a timestamp in the run description of where this is shown.)
If available to the above emulators, it is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED to enable frame counter and display of input.
Savestates For Full-game runs, the use of save states at any point during the run will void the run. For IL (individual level) runs, save states may be used to return to a point before the transition to the level starts, but not during or after the run.
Analogue Mega Sg Rules: For runs using the Analogue Mega Sg, the Mega Sg's main menu screen (the screen with the "Run Cartridge" option) and its buffer options screen must be shown before a run. The game must be visibly reset before a run. Submit Mega Sg runs as "Sega Genesis" with the "Emulator" option ticked, and state that the submission uses the Analogue Mega Sg in the submission's description. If using the "Zero Delay" buffer option, RTA time will be corrected to make up for the speed discrepancy the option creates.
If using a non-original Genesis/Megadrive, and not an Analogue Mega Sg, please specify the console used in the run in the comments of the run."
(Update - going to also add a rule for flash carts. "Flash Cart: If doing runs from a flash cart, include which one is used in submission notes, ie Everdrive, etc.")
Retroarch is ok here, as even Shime uses Retroarch with the GenPlusGX core. And if Bizhawk is not an option, there's still the BlastEm or GenPlusGX standalone emulators themselves.
From an overall Sega community perspective, I haven't heard of Retroarch being prohibited. I have heard of tension with it in the NES community and it's avoided there. I'll reach out to some members of the Sega community regarding emulators and get their input.
As I don't play on emulator myself, I was referred the following:
-Retroarch has a framecounter for its Genesis cores (GenPlusGX and BlastEm), -BizHawk (which uses GenPlusGX)
BlastEm and GenPlusGX would be the highly encouraged options.
Hi everyone,
Glad to see the number of new runs coming in for Gargoyles, everyone is doing an awesome job! When the leaderboard was first created, we had intentions that top times would require having an actual Genesis/Megadrive console, and if possible, the game itself. While that's nice and all, these retro items are not always easy to come by for everyone. So that mode of thought has gone away (at least for this leaderboard, can't speak for others).
Still, as the community grows and the top of the leaderboard trends more toward emulator/non-original console runs, I'd ask when submitting runs, that runners PLEASE include additional information regarding what's in use. Therefore, the following update will be made to the rules:
Emulator specifics:
-Emulator is allowed, and it is strongly encouraged to specify the emulator used in the run and its version in the comments -Emulator must simulate perfectly or almost the lag present in console version -It is strongly encouraged to enable frame counter -It is encouraged to enable display of input -If using a non-original Genesis/Megadrive, please specify the console used in the run in the comments
Last, but not least, please include a reset, soft or hard, of the game in your submissions. This will be included in the new rule updates.
Please let me know if anyone has questions or comments, and feel free to reply here. I'll wait on the update for a few days to see if there are any comments, but please expect the rule update to go in no later than Sept. 15th and in effect going forward.
Thank you!
Nice job, Danduffers! I actually have a 12:3x time, iirc. Never uploaded, as it didn't move me up the leaderboard, and I was content with where I am, at that time. But the highlight is on my channel.
So it doesn't count, but you still gotta come up a liiiiittle further :-). Keep up the great work!
I have two shirts with the jp box cover art. It's really good!
And yeah, the stage 3 boss was definitely a jerk that day, I'm thinking it was because I lost my wedding ring prior to the GDQ run (it was found days later), and in my livesplits, I title that fight "The Ex" lol...so the boss was trolling me really bad haha.
Happy to hear I played a part in you picking up the speedrun! It's a goal of mine to spread the love I have for games when I play/stream. Especially the ones I'm very fond of and grew up with as a child.
That's why I appreciate and love speedruns. They help bring a breath of fresh air to games I grew up with and loved.
Problem I have now is that they're taking me away from some really good (mostly modern) games, and I don't know if I can finish my backlog in my lifetime lol.
Can't speak for everyone, but probably have other things going on and the higher levels don't offer a significant change in gameplay, other than additional enemy placement and higher boss health.
Feel free though to get some times going, and I'm sure other runners will pick up the runs eventually. I plan on getting some times going at some point. Just in my case, there's other projects or IRL taking priority.
Hi Danduffers,
Watched the vid, and from my perspective -
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Routing - Identify what's the most efficient route you can take. Stages where you have to jump between heights or background (level 1-1, 1-2, 2-2, etc.), you want to minimize the times you make those transistions. Also, with good routing, you will find yourself not getting pinned down by enemies in certain spots.
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Clean up movement/attacks, know the enemy patterns - Working with #1, try to minimize the "standing" attacks that cause your character to stop. Also, know what the enemies are capable of and how they react to you. You'll then learn who you should shuriken/who you should shuriken with a power-up, jump kick, jump over, body bump, avoid and run away from.
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Muscle memory - Keep practicing and playing to get into a groove.
Work with the above first. As you get your time lower, put your own spin and improvements on the run. After that, then focus on boss improvements:
Boss 1 - Can be cleaned up, learn how to chain your attacks. Definitely recommend watching leaderboard fights from the top runners.
Boss 2 - Know the "options" you have in terms of your character vs boss spacing, boss height, and the concept behind the 1 cycle = having a second shuriken overlap the boss's hit box when you trigger the magic. Then work on timing and muscle memory.
Boss 3 - Keep practicing, determine proper character placement to avoid initial body bump.
Boss 4 - Good 1 cycle. Have a backup plan if that fails. Know how many times the stupid wheel can revolve around you, and how to handle boss height.
Boss 5 - Clean up the ninja fights. Don't let them overwhelm you as there were some close calls.
GL on your runs!
Hi Ekorner, welcome to the board and sorry for seeing this post late!
In most of the circles I've been in, a lot of people are afraid of this game, which is the reason there aren't too many resources available - it gets a bad rap, but it's really a great game...well at least a game with great charm!
For general info (subject to change if/when other admins weigh in): -Show a (soft/hard) reset in your run (few seconds or so at the start of the video), -Game should be audible, -Show the options menu to display whether you're playing on easy/hard, -Timer starts when you hit start at the title menu start screen, -Timer ends on fade to black after beating final boss, -At present, glitches are allowed (e.g. infinite jump. Makes me wonder if there should be a glitchless category at some point), -Emulator runs are allowed (make sure to list information in run submission description). Any special timing, fps, and key details not mentioned here involving emulators vs console will be considered or discussed at a later date
Besides the runners that played it some years ago, the most recent runners have been d4gr0n and myself. There was a point in time d4gr0n was playing this pretty regularly, but he's got a full plate of runs he's busy with now. I'm sure he'll eventually come back to it soon and maybe by then, would be willing to create a tutorial.
If you want the quick approach to learning the runs (easy and hard), I would highly suggest watching d4gr0n's runs of the game (including obsolete videos), as he's brought the time down significantly with the use of the infinite jump (not official name), well thought-out strats against bosses (e.g. avoiding any damage against such and such), and potion management/routing. Primary difference between easy and hard modes is the amount of damage you take from enemies.
In my opinion, the run is still young and the time can come down further, so if you pick up the game, you can also add to the knowledge capital for it 🙂. If you have any pressing questions, feel free to whisper us through Twitch (d4gr0n has a discord, but I don't have the link at the moment). I'll send you a follow on Twitch to see if you're playing the game.
Good luck Chakaning!!
Category created for Easy Any% (SMS), and I added some rules. Let me know if you have questions. I'll create additional categories for the other difficulties later.
Post your run and I'll go ahead and verify it.
Practicing for an event, RGLtv's 4-Year Anniversarelay, coming up Dec 1st, I think I improved the zip I've seen in most videos. Where most runners jump out early and take time to get to the exit, this zip will screen wrap you to the exit.
Hi cantaloupme, Slightly off topic (apologies to everyone and OP) - I play on original console using a Samsung Smart TV. I'm connected to the Samsung via the Elgato Game Capture HD (the lower end one that streams retro). So - composite cables to game capture to tv (via hdmi). In this scenario, am I impacted by "1 second per 10 mins"?
