I've noticed on the "No RNG Manip" section of the boards, there's a rule of "Those using emulator and using a route which involves intentional RNG Manipulation will be asked to submit a video of their run including the boot screen." I'm pretty sure that's not supposed to be there considering the name of the category.

Additionally, I don't see any rule on either of the categories that specifies what the difference is between the two categories - is there some sort of definition to the categories besides simply not manipulating RNG? I ask this because GMS has shown how people can easily sneak in a manip if they wanted to, completely undetectable, which could give any "no manip" runner an advantage.

@Dark_Rit I have responses to your 3 starting points.

1. Timer means nothing. Some runners can do all RNG manipulation using audio and visual cues and never touch a timer. Banning a timer in non-manip attempts is silly. Plus, if someone really wanted to commit to a timer, they'd just use their speedrun timer and remember the milestone they have to hit a button on to do the manipulation.
2. As shown by GMS, you can manipulate Beast Fangs without hard resetting, and any advantage one can gain over others through RNG manipulation in a run that prohibits it would make things difficult for those who choose to do any runs without manipulation to compete with it.
3. I think it's a little rough to completely invalidate a run on a possible accidental push of a square button. Plus, with things like random shuffles and 3D battles, people can meme about RNG manipulation and act like they're going for a drop when their "intention" is non-manipulation. If your response to that is "well then they should post it under RNG manipulation", then my response to that is "there shouldn't even be a tag in the first place" Not to mention, you can still pull off successful manipulations without 3D battles.

The other thing that should also be considered is witch hunting. There's a possibility that really good times that people do with the intention of not RNG manipulating could be scrutinized for any play that is considered "non-optimal" especially if it results in getting a desired drop.

I have an idea if people are fine with going the modded ISO route.

Usually the thing that dictates how Manip runners can obtain drops is through doing certain duel actions to manipulate how the duel goes, considering that, during the duel, the seed that determines RNG remains frozen and only advances in intervals instead of constantly. This is why we do random dumps, fusions, 3D battles, etc. to guarantee the certain drop that we want, as well as being able to completely manipulate the final duels, since the only time the seed advances automatically is between each duel for relatively short intervals of time.

The only thing that makes this possible is the fact that the RNG seed stops advancing during duels instead of constantly moving. If this seed continued to move during the duel, other than a TAS, it would be near-impossible to successfully manipulate anything other than the starter deck (which is something that current non-manip runners do anyway when they reset console or exit to menu for decks; regardless of RNG seed awareness, this is still RNG manipulation as you are working around this mechanic for a desired result).

The best way for there to be a true separation, with the current state of the game, is to create a modified ISO that still continues to advance the RNG seed constantly while in duels instead of it stopping. This way, duels can't be performed without TAS-like execution to get drops that are needed or easy modes from hard duelists. The only thing that you would be able to manipulate would be the starting deck at the beginning of the game, since that only relies on one well-timed input from the Enter Your Name screen instead of multiple well-timed inputs during duels.

So using this modified ISO would mean the following things.

1. If this is going to be a category, it absolutely has to be miscellaneous, as it's being run off of a modified ISO instead of the actual game.
2. The current runs on the Any% No Card Duplication leaderboard would have to remain on that leaderboard, as they are not using the modified ISO and therefore cannot be replicated on the modded one due to the RNG seed.
3. As stated before, RNG Manipulation still exists in the game and is used by those claiming to be "no manip" runners from simply resetting for a desirable deck, regardless of whether or not they are aware of the exact result. Because of this, it's not entirely accurate to have a flag for "RNG Manipulation Yes/No", since it's being used in some degree.
4. Starter deck manipulation would be the only thing humanly possible to perform on this ISO for RNG Manipulation, but because of the easy degree of difficulty to land one correct input, it would not put anyone at too much of an "advantage." If anything, this could be a gateway for some people who are not using RNG manipulation to partake in learning more about it, and go to the main game to do Manipulation runs.
5. To further prevent any potential manipulations later into the run, a rule of "All runs must be single-segment; resetting your console at any time invalidates the run" can be added. This can cut back on seed clusters for easy modes for manipulating the Final 6 or even Meadow Mage for MBD. (Thanks to GCAH2006 and GenericMadScientist for brainstorming this point)

This is the only compromise I think is possible for both parties to get pretty much what they want, and I hope it's a way for us to have our middle ground. People who are running Manip clearly want to complete the game as fast as possible, and people who are running No Manip clearly want to gamble and play without having to conform to the fastest possible strategies.

I don't think there should be a flag at all but I am okay with the current compromise.

I would also like to remind those in favor of a split to also check out GenericMadScientist's thread made about proposed No Manip rules and suggest how you would want to define the difference. I am fine with a split if a clear definition can be made for No RNG manipulation.

I'm pretty sure I did that on my console. Maybe I should try again and get back to you.

Edit: you are correct. In my experiments with 2P Trade, I must have just used the same memory card over and over and moved it to my main card. Since hardware manipulation is involved via opening the disc tray, which is already outlawed in other categories, I motion to remove Card Duplication as a category in its entirety.

The other method not mentioned is to remove Memory Card 2 from slot A after saving and replacing it with Memory Card 3 and then 4. Memory Card 1 of course is the main save. This would not require opening the disc tray at all and would seem to be the most "legitimate" function since you're using all of the game's resources.

Except the only things that aren't a resource are all the extra memory cards.

You actually noticed a difference in runs in the final guys on manip runs vs. Non-manip runs? Because they seem to look the same to me. Pray for easy modes, hope for removals otherwise.

I wonder how this discussion would have went about categories if the first attempts of successful RNG manipulation took 4 hours instead of two. Somehow I feel like "same category" would be fine by both sides then.

I'm not going to speak for Cards as I am not his attorney, but I feel that Kollin's interpretation of what he said and my interpretation were vastly different. I can't be the only one.

Exarion's point about vastly differing times on a leaderboard being pointless due to "common sense" clashes with the current state the leaderboard is in prior to RNG Manipulation in Any% No CD.

I personally prefer speedrun leaderboards with runs that have large ranges. It gives me an idea that I can enter it and try it and still make a dent on the leaderboard. It also shows a reflection of how people can progress through a run. Looking at the Super Metroid leaderboards and seeing 300+ times ranging everywhere from 42 minutes to an hour and a half. It's history. Some of those times don't have the skips and strategies that new optimizations have. You need long times just as much as new times. New skips, new strategies, new optimizations - a leaderboard can tell a story that way. Putting RNG manipulation with runs that aren't RNG manipulation is a reflection of this history. Having a column that specifically depicts which runs use it and which don't can further paint that picture for onlookers to see how far of a jump this discovery is making, and how far it can continue to be made. I feel that neither portion of this run should be pushed off to the side as they're both important.

Keep them on the same leaderboard. Show the history of the game's progress this way.

I 100% agree with Spectre's idea on labeling the runs within the same any% category as which ones are RNG manipulation and which ones are not. I feel it is the best option and creates a great compromise between the clearly divided group.

EDIT: I feel it should also be known that, due to the development of RNG manipulation, I have actually been practicing in my spare time to hit the deck frames and MBD frames, giving me an interest in actually running this game. Had this not come to light, I wouldn't be touching this game for any other reason than casual play. I feel this discovery is nothing but good news for the FM community.