Super Smash Bros. Melee Forum  /  Hyrule Code in Resources?
  FuzzynessFuzzyness
(edited: )

Can we add the Hyrule Triforce position code into resources?

I can provide both action replay + gecko + file for Gecko/Nintendont on the Wii
and the original smashboards link

I still feel like it should be allowed because running it without the code is so awful and doesn't change the run at all outside of just reset count

The VH Adventure WR already uses hyrule code and I just massively improved by VE pb by 7s

I'm completely fine with adding another column to speedrun.com to say if they used the code or not (like sunshine with hacked file)

Arguments For:

- More friendly for runners
- Higher Skill Ceiling
- Saves tons of real life time
- Way more enjoyable to watch + do
- Doesn't change the run at all, would be the same with the RNG
(it's a reset in both VE and VH if you are going for world record with perfect RNG)
- Really easy to add the code on Dolphin

Arguments Against:

- Legitimacy
- Setting up gecko/action replay can be annoying for Wii/Gamecube

SilentProtagonistSilentProtagonist, mariokartheromariokarthero and TechTech like this. 
  Pokemonmaster888Pokemonmaster888
(edited: )

This subject has been discussed a lot before, both here and in other speedrunning/gaming communities. I know this cheat code will allow more runs to be completed and will save people time and anger at restarting the mode, but competitive play in general (and in other fields like sports and many other hobbies/professions) has always been about playing what you are given, not changing something just because you can, and because it makes things easier. I am aware other communities for speedrunning have begun to alter games' RNG and make it permissible for categories, but I fundamentally do not agree with it at all. There are very strong arguments against this request and I know many people can logically break down why doing this would be a detriment to the game. I don't think it matters if the code usage cannot be detected or if doesn't change the run's time, in theory. The usage of it by nature is the factor.

You stated your existing Adventure, Very Hard record used this code (if I recognized that the WR is your run here), and I'm sure you were aware then that the code was not allowed in 2018, given the game rules and that you used to be a moderator for this game. Yes, people will not know if you did the run utilizing the code in this case, unless you revealed it. You did self-verify that run, which I also recommended against to you around ~2018 (or before that year). A main point of speedrunning and competing is to be honest and follow the rules, making it fair for everybody. Doing your act is what should never be done, regardless of if you agree with the rules or not. As others have said, you do not need a website or hub to play the game as you want. You can do your own speedruns as you choose regardless of where they are placed.

This game is the standard hub for Super Smash Bros. Melee play and keeping it as clean and logically structured as possible is what I, and many others in competitive endeavors, think is best. I am discussing this topic with the game moderators to give more insight about it, but at least for now, I would say you can compete with this RNG change in the category extension area, as that is what it is designed to accommodate. For yourself, I am not happy that you deliberately broke the rules, given what I did tell you before and the progression of this situation today.

ZennanZennan likes this. 
  FuzzynessFuzzyness
(edited: )

The category for v hard wasnt ran for over 2 years and i just wanted to improve the record, literally no one else running it anyway after i had record. Previous wr pre-code is on YouTube

I actually had a time better than A rookies adventure mode v easy a long time ago with the hyrule code too, its still on my YouTube.

Trying to claim i cheat sure, i literally say on the splits hyrule code.
Most of your post is offtopic and talking about my moderation for one submitted run when the topic is not that

you keep claiming to have discussed with people but who? Ive never been involved in these discussions yet im the main runner.

Theres not been a "community" vote or anything either, not even to add a hyrule code column just like sunshine hacked file (i feel you ignored that part). Just add hide code runs by default if you really care that much

Me and A Rookie are the only 2 competing in this category for VE, it should be up to the runners as long as its accessible

Imo bringing life to the game > keeping it dead
When i ran this on stream people wanted to get into trying to speedrun it because it looked fun, resets on triforce would put off any new runners

edit: A rookie has said he doesn't really want to use it, given he doesnt have to anyway

Adding a filter on src is so easy and less messy than ext category. When submitting runs just ask if they use hyrule/c-stick and hide by default if necessary

If its a real issue to add a column just put both runs under extension and delete my other runs off src i don't care about them

SilentProtagonistSilentProtagonist and NordanixNordanix like this. 
  AyRookieAyRookie

Since I am a main runner of this game as well, I guess my input would bear some weight? Here goes:

Fuzzy and I talked yesterday in my stream about this situation. I understand his frustration, but I always believed it is against the integrity of the run to use Hyrule code. The hacked file from SMS only skips cutscenes, it doesn't effect the luck of the run in any way, like using code.

I also heavily disagree w/ anyone verifying their own runs. That's a conflict of interest. If someone else has verified their own run, then it should be looked at accordingly. Given Fuzzyness' reputation, I don't believe he'd be dishonest, but it still defeats the principle of having a cross check. But if we want to stay consistent, we should move his run into "category extension" so there's no controversy later o

Lastly, people can say whatever they want like, "I want to run this game!" with code or no code. How many people actually try? There could be a SpeedRun that requires a single button input and people will still be too lazy to attempt. There seems to be a decent amount of people running the "category extension" and that's good! So what's bad with telling your viewers that they can use C Stick/20XX/Mods, but it'll just be in a different category? Maybe that'll be the gateway to bringing in more competition while maintaining integrity for each category. That being said, these should be the solidified rules so we don't keep moving goal posts. Those are my thoughts.

 
  FuzzynessFuzzyness
(edited: )

Category Extensions is mostly dead and not active

If you wanted that to be the main focus category for adventure mode you might as well combine them with a filter and hide hyrule code by default

Description: runs will be accepted with hyrule code but they will be hidden by default
all runs submitted will need a previous broadcast / runs recorded to check if hyrule code is active

c-stick and ucf should still be banned, its a clear advantage and can remain in extension (barely anyone will run anyway)

If you want melee to survive on SRC I really recommend opening it up for more people. This also includes individual characters times for most modes which'll be a lot of modding but LOTS more people will run the game. People always ask me on my stream if that's a thing

SilentProtagonistSilentProtagonist and SukeSJSukeSJ like this. 
  FuzzynessFuzzyness

https://prnt.sc/vv9fgt

This proves a point, we used to be top 10 on speedrun.com. Changes need to be made

SilentProtagonistSilentProtagonist likes this. 
  Pokemonmaster888Pokemonmaster888
(edited: )

For you specifically, Fuzzyness, you still submitted said run with the code when you knew it was not allowed and controversial, and also self-verified it. You did break the rules regardless of if you showed/wrote that the code was used in the video. Although the video may have been unnoticed like that until now, it of course doesn't mean it should be there under those rules or that it is correct. I don't recall looking into the video heavily at that time as you were a moderator, and thus I was trusting you to follow the rules when you played. I turned off the self-verifying option in ~2018 once I deemed it not a good idea here.

The community people I have talked to about this over the years include the Cyberscore community, other competitive communities such as the Sonic Speedrunning Community, and the Smash Stadium players and speedrunners (new and old) themselves. Communities that have experience and are focused primarily on playing video games for this field of purpose, to get diverse opinions and reasoning on the matter. The opinions I've seen are almost always about why this is the wrong choice for general leaderboards for this game (and in games of any type in general too). I've talked to you directly and the other game moderators about it as well, multiple times, in a small group setting. This has been a topic of discussion for ~4-5 years or more now.

I can't verify if Super Smash Bros. Melee used to be top 10 in speedrun activity on speedrun.com right now, but from moderating the game for over 5 years I have seen it always be somewhat inactive. I never have seen activity levels in that time that would get even close to top 10 on this website. Regardless, I know the game can be more active and I have/am taking steps to make it so. The Melee speedrunning scene is not big as the game itself is focused on multiplayer for its design, and what people mostly play it for. That does not mean we can't make it as active as possible and expand its content offerings, but this cheat code request is not the way to go to do that. I really don't believe this game is less active due to too strict rules or lack of a permissible RNG code compared to other realistic factors that could be the cause. The game's rules are not outlandish and were designed to uphold competitive integrity powerfully while not being unreasonable or over-the-top.

In addition, one other point is that using this kind of code is not even compliant with what traditional competition or speedrunning is about. Rules and guidelines every record-keeping website/organization that I have seen has used. One could make the argument that using cheat codes to guarantee RNG is a TAS creation, and thus not even meant for or valid on this website.

The whole reason the Category Extensions game was created was to handle situations like this and to keep the standard game free of mods/cheat codes/alterations/etc. For this situation, I think it would be understandable to compromise by creating categories for Adventure there that require this cheat code and no other mods. You could compete with it there without it affecting the standard game (which is why there are two game entries) and not have other adjustments so that the categories would be kept plain apart from that. If people want to submit to categories with this cheat code, the new categories there would be popular and that game would get active as a result. Alternatively, create a filter for the leaderboard in existing categories of Adventure there for its structure. The goal there would be to set up the place to submit with the RNG altering code in the best way possible, in the Category Extension.

I would like to add leaderboards for single characters in Classic/Adventure/All-Star at some point (this has been discussed and an idea ever since the Melee speedrunning scene existed concretely from ~2005 onward). The issue there and now is that no hub had a good structure and tools to add, manage or display such a large number of charts well. Once this website has such things, I could do that. I was about to create such charts for the Category Extension earlier in the year but I realized that doing it would be a bad idea right now, given that speedrun.com is getting re-developed and adding new features.

As a last note for this post, I want to make clear that I am not 100% against this concept of using cheat codes to play video games. I don't like that concept personally, but people can play how they want and that is fine as long as it doesn't infringe on what other people want. That is their choice, obviously, and can be respected. The problem that is present here is using those cheat codes for competition/display in a public and organized space, which in many ways goes against what this kind of play and hub is meant for. I don't think that is hard to recognize, and I hope you and others understand my logic.

 
  Pokemonmaster888Pokemonmaster888

As an addendum to my last post, speedrun.com's own rules and guidelines discourage cheat codes, as a concrete reference for this discussion. https://i.imgur.com/vjERCdN.png

 
  arrmemateyarrmematey

Does hacking really count as a cheat code? It seems to me that the last rule in the list is for hacking, and the the rule you highlighted is for cheats that exist in the unmodified game.

 
  FuzzynessFuzzyness
(edited: )

Whoever updated the leaderboard for hyrule code mod

you didnt even put my proper IGT for Very Easy its wrong by 1s
the leaderboard doesn't even show the times its broken along with the options being broken as well

I also found out my old pb was faster IGT than my hyrule code run
which is legit and on console FeelsGoodMan, fuck emulator runs anyway
2s faster and I've submitted it
I deleted the V-Hard Hyrule Code best time because its not important if its worse

I had no idea because we didnt use IGT back then
2016 goodness 😃

Checking the hyrule position loses 1s IGT but gives more run odds (you can see the 2016 run does that)
It might be manipulatable with RNG manip soon anyway