I'm making this thread for the Silent Hill 4 players to talk about what we should do about the Quit and Continue thing because it was mentioned on the Discord once briefly and then swiftly implemented without a whole lot of discussion surrounding the matter.

I've since heard a fair amount of reasonable complaints and dissent from the actual running base on the matter, so I'd like people who run this game to put forth their opnions on how to handle this? Separate category? Ban it entirely? Something else? Community thinktank, if you will.

because this matter I don't feel ever really got a fair discussion before it got passed and some people clearly aren't happy with it

My own personal opinion is that I'm completely happy to split the categories over it or disallow it entirely, whatever the general zeitgeist desires, it's just hard to tell what people actually want without a centered discussion point.

Go for it, lads.

I believe Quit & Continue should be its own catagory, if it's to be allowed. Since the catagory itself uses an in-game timer, using a continue or getting a game over means that timer resets back to wherever your continue is. I could use that logic and just keep dying & resetting in the Twin Victim hallway until I get a good time, for example.

Also, it makes each reset unnecessarily painful as you have to click Continue multiple times before you start your run.

A brief roundtable kind of thing on the SH discord shows all of the (active) mods (i.e me, tekkie and maxy) are favourable to a category split. Nubzombie seemed favourable to a split, as did Enigma. So, the common sentiment is definitely leaning pretty heavily in the direction of "sub-category split" already.

I'll leave it for some more people to post their 2 cents, but there's a fairly convincing sentiment emerging already.

I think Q/C has its place for sure to see just how low the IGT can get, but I agree I'd like to see it separated from the main any% category. I agree with what Wuss says about how it resets the timer and that it might open a slippery slope discussion about doing timer manipulation stuff with other parts in the game. That would be fine in its own category, but I do think it needs to be filtered out of the main any% category.

I think the way Q/C effects difficulty is interesting and I do think it deserves it's place, but having it merged with non Q/C runs just doesn't seem fair to me considering the fact that it's no longer single segment and it makes the game easier. Also as Wuss said it makes even starting a run irritating which might stop potential runners from learning the game, which is a shame considering how small the SH4 community is.

I'll just kinda echo what I said in the discord

Firstly, its not a strat or discovery since its in the actual manual of the game, probably intended for Game Overs rather than actually quitting, so an oversight on the developers' part. However as the game goes by IGT and thus should be single segment as others have said, it should therefor be not allowed. At this point I think the category should be renamed "NG (Easy)" to fall inline with the previous games in the series' leaderboards, and make a miscellaneous category for Q/C since is still a very gray area.

[quote]Maxy was the one that edited the boards and put all of this into play without even considering a community vote. That in itself is terrible leadership on his part as a Silent Hill moderator.[/quote]

Not that I disagree with the fact that it was added before any substantial discussion took place but I think this is rather unflattering and a bit needlessly hostile. The intention was never to just bypass community discussion, it was for earmarking.

Maxy created a new variable so that all runs that came through using it could/would be clearly marked from the get-go since it occupied a strange sort of grey area, the fact that he did this at the earliest opportunity now makes it easy for us to just split that shit down the middle or dispose of it if we want to with no runs getting lost or having to be manually adjusted. I did the exact same thing for Silent Hill 2 60FPS mod a while back, and that voting went in a different direction (ban entirely) and there was no particular issue there. The same thing was performed a long time ago for SH2/SH3 QS/QL only that has just been left as a variable and has basically since just become a standard way of play. These things go different ways, tracking it early makes it easier to make changes later.

Don't be so harsh, it's really not a big deal. It's actually saved some headache in the long run.

Also, it was pushed out quickly (with an agreement that it would be discussed later) because SGDQ submissions were looming when Crowsadilla discovered it and those who were submitting (me) needed some kind of verdict on if it was acceptable or not.

If Q/C becomes its own category you'd also need to make a category for Escape, One Weapon, and All weapon modes as well as each can also use Q/C to lower IGT. Also to the whole segmenting thing, the reason all 12 were done at the beginning was so only 1.5 seconds (an easily consistent 1.5 seconds) would be segmented.

I feel a variable option makes the most sense, if you don't like Q/C then just check the variable that says "No Q/C" and then filter to hide QC runs if they turn your stomach so much. If you don't wish to be inconvenienced by resets then by all means just don't tick the Q/C box and run as normal. The exact same logic can be used for both SH2 and SH3 QS/QL but its okay there for "reasons" whereas Q/C can be done on any platform and is done at the very start (1.5 seconds in, immediately past the first cutscene.)

Anyway, that's just my two cents. Toodles.

[quote]If Q/C becomes its own category you'd also need to make a category for Escape, One Weapon, and All weapon modes as well as each can also use Q/C to lower IGT.[/quote]

That would be possible and probably easier than the alternative since all I'd have to do is click the button that makes Q/C behave like a sub-category and it'd automatically apply to everything.

I'd rather we just banned it then honestly because that'd look a bit of a mess.

And yeah I also agree about the QS/QL in 2/3 honestly, I guess its too far gone at this point? Whereas this is still relatively new and easier to reverse.

for the first time ever I have next to no idea what the beef is and I'm actually sort of glad for once

[quote]My reply was in response to what I heard from you, in the context of it never even been handed a community vote and just sort of happened.[/quote]

Yeah, I did say it never had a community vote and just sort of happened, but that's more just a candid description of events. We sorta forgot to actually have the discussion more than any sort of like, accusation towards Maxy. You feel?

Although, granted from waht I'm seeing on the forum and the discord. The opinion pretty dang heavily sways in favour of splitting Q/C into a subcategory, so I'm just gonna go ahead and do that.

Uh, meeting adjourned, I suppose? I dunno, I wasn't expecting the opinion to be that one-sided.

Update: Thanks to a fairly insightful suggestion from Nubzombie, I've kinda turned the Q/C variable into something more like the difficulty select sub-category from SH2.

It probably needs a better name than "Easier" but I'm generally operating under the logic that it'll make it easier to add "Hard" mode later if anyone becomes interested in performing that run. I like this idea at any rate, penny for ya'll thoughts?

The structure can be pretty freely messed with at this stage so it's easy to change stuff around if need be so don't worry too much if there's a mistake or it could be better, just mention it.

I'd suggest just calling the category Q/C or Quit and Continue due to the fact that Q/C works regardless of difficulty.

I have recently asked on the Discord the validity of using Q/C for One Weapon and All Weapons mode. I did not get an answer unfortunately.

This post may as well be me asking the same thing. Crows' One Weapon run used it and it was approved. I ask only because I don't want to assume and cause any issues later.

Should the answer either be yes or no, I think it should be specified in the rules of said categories. Easy and Easier are the only categories that mention Q/C within it's rules.