Forums  /  Quest 64  /  OoB Routing Discussion
  RiaSkiesRiaSkies

This is what I feel as far as categories are concerned.

Save corruption should NOT be allowed EXCEPT as a separate category; it feels one step removed from the OoT crooked cartridge trick; this really feels like hardware manipulation to me. Now, it's an interesting run / route and I feel we should consider it, but I don't know of any game where save corruption is part of any% without being a separate category from no save corruption.

Spirit Cloning should be allowed in all categories (except if a glitchless category is developed).

OoB should be allowed, but I feel we should have at least one category with no OoB, because the routes seem like they would heavily diverge. I personally (read: personal bias at work here) would care to see any% allow it and all spirits to disallow it, so as to let All Spirits be the run that showcases the majority of the game, and any% is "beat the game as quickly as possible, utilizing whatever techniques, glitches, tricks, etc. enable that goal."

Now, as far as routing is concerned, if you are doing Save Corruption, it almost seems like you might just go all-in on Fire at the start of the run since you won't need Healing magic, though you would lose access to Exit (and cloning). It seems like, because of cloning, it would be fastest to do 24 Water (Return, Escape, and Exit spells) -> 50 Fire -> 50 Earth; you can probably get past Shilf while only burning ~50 Spirit Lights and you can easily get to 20-25 Fire by Cull Hazard and 32-34 Fire by Zelse for damage. Fire Ball 3 pretty cleanly destroys Nepty and Shilf as well, and you'd skip Fargo (and probably have Avalanche by Guilty/Beigis anyhow).

Will probably have better things to say later when it is not-Midnight.

 
  chilichili

I don't see any reason to disallow OoB for all spirits if it's faster, you'll still have to figure out a way to get the spirits that you're skipping with OoB

 
  JazzyChoi1991JazzyChoi1991

We really should have a meeting to discuss categories

 
  JazzyChoi1991JazzyChoi1991

We really should have a meeting to discuss categories

 
  squidtepigsquidtepig

Whenever everyone aggrees on a time I can do my best to find interwebs.

 
  chilichili

we should probably just make another thread and use this one for routing discussion

 
  JazzyChoi1991JazzyChoi1991

We should really decide on categories since a few of us are wanting to do runs?

 
  kirkqkirkq

Is there anything stopping you from doing runs?

I think everyone pretty much agrees for any% save corruption is a different category (layout TBD) and all categories can use spirit dupe and OoB.

Realistically, no OoB doesn't really add that much except potentially a boring walk through blue cave (route TBD) and a boring walk through boil hole. I don't really see a place for it outside of glitchless if we want to maintain that.

Another option is to just have "uses spirit dupe" and "uses OoB" as variables on all the runs, like I advocated before, but you guys didn't seem too keen on that.

I have no strong preference on what is done with 100%.

any% US, save corruption
any% US, no save corruption
any% JP
100% US, save corruption (These might fit better in the same table if we want to maintain both.)
100% US, no save corruption (These might fit better in the same table if we want to maintain both.)
100% JP

Run whatever you want IMO.

 
  JazzyChoi1991JazzyChoi1991

Ok I agree with that, any% with save and without save corruption, same for all spirits (rather than call it 100%).

 
  JazzyChoi1991JazzyChoi1991

Add glitchless for any% and All Spirits too

 
  squidtepigsquidtepig

Sounds good to me Kirky. Any% with/without save corruption sounds good. (Which OoB and Spirit dupe is obviously included but not mandatory.) I also wouldn't mind glitchless categories for Any% and All Spirits. SO MANY new categories assuming that everyone else agrees on this.

 
  hoboX10hoboX10

This should be every full category then, all of which include out of bounds and spirit duplication:

J P any%
U S any%

J P any% save corruption
U S any% save corruption

J P All spirits
U S All Spirits

J P All spirits save corruption (No idea if these 2 would even be necessary categories, probably not)
U S All spirits save corruption

J P any% glitchless
U S any% glitchless

J P All spirits glitchless
U S All spirits glitchless

J P 200 Elements
U S 200 Elements

Any I'm forgetting? (Forgot all spirits glitchless, thanks Jazzy)

 
  chilichili

is 200 elements a category people actually want to run? it just seems like a slower all spirits run with lots of extra spirit dupes to me. (I'm fine with it being in misc categories like it is currently). Other than that I agree with what's been said above

 
  hoboX10hoboX10

Forgot glitchless all spirits. Jazzy reminded me.

Also I know me and squid are definitely both interested in 200 element runs. Drifting might be too. IDK about anyone else.

 
  JazzyChoi1991JazzyChoi1991

Right so,

J P any%
U S any%

J P any% save corruption
U S any% save corruption

J P All spirits
U S All Spirits

J P any% glitchless
U S any% glitchless

J P All spirits glitchless
U S All spirits glitchless

with other miscellaneous categories and true 100% (all stats and spirits)

Are we happy with this?

 
  JazzyChoi1991JazzyChoi1991

Right so,

J P any%
U S any%

J P any% save corruption
U S any% save corruption

J P All spirits
U S All Spirits

J P any% glitchless
U S any% glitchless

J P All spirits glitchless
U S All spirits glitchless

with other miscellaneous categories and true 100% (all stats and spirits)

Are we happy with this?

 
  hoboX10hoboX10

I'm wondering if we should just remove J P save corruption actually, no reason to run it over US. Plus it is much, much harder to pull off and you have to watch how many items you are holding.

 
  RiaSkiesRiaSkies

Yeah, pretty much: should have any%, all spirits (both glitchless and normal, no save corruption), save corruption run, and possibly 200 spirits (US only) if anyone cares about the category.

The top times for the glitchless categories should still be listed as their respective category WR's until supplanted by a run that does use glitches - it's somewhere between disingenuous and outright wrong to say that my 2:30:xx run is the any% record when kirkq's glitchless run is a full 8 minutes faster.

 
  RiaSkiesRiaSkies

Some other things:

If you do OoB, going back into Boil Hole to fight Fargo takes about 4 minutes, compared with going directly into Baragoon Moor from Boil Hole without fighting him.

It's about 19:00 from Shilf to Fargo using no OoB.

By comparison, I did a save from the Dries Hut to Baragoon Moor. I was able to get from the Dries Hut to Baragoon Moor in about 10 minutes, and it was about 14 to get back to the Moor if I fought Fargo.

Fighting him increases your max HP by 20. This turns out to be quite a lot, as it means that:

Guilty doesn't kill you with Short Range + Long Range at 25 defense (pretty typical amount); his min is 129 and max is 144. (It's more likely than not that you don't die at 140 / 25, but I'd prefer not to take any chances)

Beigis doesn't kill you with 2x Short Range (86 x 2 at 26 defense means you take 172 max at 26 defense, compared with ~167 HP, assuming you didn't fight Fargo.)

Mammon can't kill you with double Flame Wall (212 HP / 27 Defense means at most 105 from Flame Wall).

It would require about 32 defense to survive double Flame Wall (195 HP vs. ~98 damage max?)

Fastest place to grind is probably Skelebats in Blue Cave 2? I think you can get hit 40 times per minute, and you need about 200 hits to get from 27 to 32 defense. That would cost about 5 minutes as well.

If we were willing to risk Flame Wall not happening twice in a row, we'd need to get to about 29 defense for Beigis to not die to 2 Sword Slashes. This would require about 1:40 in additional Skelebat grinding (to about 102 HP), but we would need to accommodate for less time spent taking hits in Boil Hole, so grinding to 103 or 104 HP for Nepty is probably ideal to accommodate this, and makes this and the Shilf fight safer. This makes OoB about 5 minutes faster than no OoB under realistic scenarios, meaning that 2:15 or so is probably on the table, but would require an insane amount of optimization.

There is also the fact that you will be down a bit of power due to fewer spirits acquired (2-3 battle spirits), and the damage multiplier is dependent partially on Brian's max HP. Cloning the Baragoon Moor spirit on the bridge and getting all six Spirits in Glencoe (I only got the first four, all cloned) will give 5-ish more Spirits. Can also get the 1st spirit in Brannoch Castle (~18 seconds?) or the Shilf Antechamber spirits as well (~20-ish apiece) to make up some damage output. This means that more realistically, we'd be looking at shooting for a high-2:16 to low-2:17.

So, yeah, here's some theorycrafting about actual routing instead of categories.

 
  kirkqkirkq

I still think that skipping Fargo is necessary for a really good run. The gain at Guilty isn't huge. The Beigis gain is huge, the Mammon gain is relatively trivial in the scheme of things.

It's 4 whole minutes saved for some additional factors of risk.

Also I think the "Glitched" categories should feature all of the unglitched times. It's just any%, my run got beat by a new trick, but it's still any%. (Times can be added in two categories, though it has to be added as a new run.) If the category was called "glitched", then it shouldn't have other runs. The category should be called any%.

Also this is prime usage for a category variable. "Uses OoB/SD yes/no" would fix all of this and make the board look much better.