Character Subcategories (And guidelines (should probably read this))
5 years ago
Finland

Hey, we added character subcategories to the Warpless boards. You can go for all new world records or something.

However, Warpless is still treated as normal via the 'All' tab, which as the name suggests lists every run regardless of the character. Due to the wonky way SRcom works, from now on you should submit your runs twice (fun!), both under the 'All' tab and again under whatever character type you used. SRcom savvy people may be wondering why we didn't use a variable for this instead, and honestly I do not know ask Hypnoshark or something.

For people who did runs with multiple characters before, and have obsolete runs (runs that aren't your PB) on SRcom done with other characters, please resubmit them under their correct subcategories. I'm not checking through obsolete runs.

also srcom sucks and all runs have to be manually duped so the boards are gonna build gradually please wait warmly

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Fedecrash02 and Hypnoshark like this
Hampshire, England

(The reason the variables were not used was because srcom is fun and if u had 4 runs with 4 different characters, 3 of your runs would have the ugly looking "-". As well as this having different leaderboards is just easier to see, and as well as this it will generate more motivation for people to do runs with different characters.)

Colorado, USA

I think it'd just be better with variables, like come on. The same could be said about Crash Bash. 2 submitted runs each is objectively bad and not what should be done in any case. Please reconsider.

BlitzPhoenix98 likes this

Interesting idea, honestly But I kinda am to agree with Jumpy, Bash should also then have 4 character categories and not just all 8 in one category.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Finland

I agree with variables too but ?

Colorado, USA

Why is it being done like this then? Does hypnoshark not know about the filters option?

BlitzPhoenix98 likes this
Uruguay

From a total outsider perspective I agree with Jumpy entirely

BlitzPhoenix98 likes this
Finland

Wait what Pull got beaten? How can this beeeeeeee Kappa

Colorado, USA

The "-" that you think is so ugly is just a character to act as a placeholder for a run that's on the leaderboard that should not be ranked. When you have a ranking like 1st, 13th, or 142nd, that means it is your best run that can be shown on a board. If you think the hyphen is ugly, learn to use the filter option on the leaderboard. Examples of things that fall into the "should not be ranked" that are displayed are: obsoleted runs, your best run on different hardware, your best run with obsoleting variables (such as a character selection). Subcategories are not the solution in this case. Not only are you doubling counts on the stats page, but you're making our profiles EVEN UGLIER by having 2 displays per single run. Luckily, all the work you've put in is easily removable by deleting the extra categories. All existing runs can be edited to cleanly add a character selection (just like Bash which does this properly). If you want to see how your run compares, use the filters, and submit your best time per character anyway. If you want to see how this would work, go to Bash and filter it by character. One difference here would be that CTR needs only 4 characters, but Bash needs all 8 for CPU difference reasons.

It might also be worth mentioning that making such drastic changes without a poll or even mod agreement is a bad idea. I like hypnoshark, but this wasn't and isn't okay.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
BlitzPhoenix98 likes this

I am completely siding with Jumpy on this one and think a poll should've been made first before this decision was made.

Hampshire, England

Ok, so the main reason that variables were disregarded was due to the not only "-" but also due to the fact that separate leaderboards create more of a motivation for runners to try the different characters and optimize them (that and the moment I mentioned this idea, everyone seemed in agreement, hence why we decided to implement it) HOWEVER, i only did this because I thought I was representing the community's best interests, and therefore I would be more than happy to have a poll go forward, as once again, this is about the community.

victorards likes this
Hampshire, England

so tl:dr is hell yeah, lets have a poll. Thanks for the responses :)

victorards likes this
Hampshire, England

I think this should be mentioned just for the record, in the last day, 3 runs have been submitted to the "Balanced" Leaderboards, these runs would have absolutely not happened if these changes hadn't been made, and its cool to see these changes making a positive impact and creating more ways for people to have fun with the game, that is all.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Colorado, USA

There is never a reason to have two identical runs submitted to two categories on speedrun.com. This especially is not an exception. If characters are different enough to warrant a subcategory, make it a subcategory, but remove the "All" leaderboard. If the characters aren't so different and runs are comparable to each other, make it a variable. There can not be both a leaderboard that has them all and 4 leaderboards as subcategories. The 3 runs may have been submitted if there had been a character variable too - again, check the Bash leaderboards for multi-character activity. Variables work. I would still like to hear your opinion or justification for a single run being submitted twice. I can't seem to wrap my head around it.

Hampshire, England

The justification is what I said earlier, the fact that it opens up opportunities to play the game differently, and it also acts as a motivator, which I'm sorry to say, but variables would not and do not motivate people. I have had numerous people say already that there fans of this change, but at the same time there has been opposition to it, hence why we're gonna have a poll. But as I said before, if people are happy with just variables, then so am I.

Hampshire, England

https://www.strawpoll.me/17681275 Vote on the future of the CTR Boards.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
ScorpionSRL likes this
Massachusetts, USA

This is not an option on the leaderboards, however personally I believe if people really wwant to do runs with other characters, then do the four separate character category and just get rid of the all category. After all, is it really fair in the first place to compare a Pura run to a Coco run? However, if that is not an option, then I would just create variables.

Jumpyluff likes this
Colorado, USA

That pretty much sums it up. There are 2 reasons why this shouldn't be done.

  1. It messes with statistics. There will be twice as many full-game runs on the /stats page for the game. It also changes how many runs each individual runner has, both displayed on their profile and within the user stats. Not only is this ugly, complicated, and tedious, but it also creates fake statistics about the game - https://www.speedrun.com/ctr/gamestats

  2. It's floating between the variables option and subcategories option by both having a leaderboard that combines them all and one that separates them all. Subcategories are used when the differences are drastic enough to warrant a split. GC vs PS2 vs XBOX, N64 vs Wii VC vs Emulator, different patch versions of certain games, remastered versions, difficulty modes, etc. Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 examples of games that use a subcategory for a character split. https://www.speedrun.com/octopath and https://www.speedrun.com/re2remake and https://www.speedrun.com/cv64 - In all cases, the character split is due to a difference in storyline. In CTR, it's the difference of a second or two per track. It's illogical to make it a subcategory and a crime to duplicate the entire board, for reasons stated above. If a subcategory is what you decide to do, we can't keep the All tab. By keeping both you are stating that there is a big enough difference to warrant a subcategory, but they are all comparable to each other anyway. That's an oxymoron. You can not have both.

Even if your poll, which does not accurately state all possible options (such as a subcategoried board without the All tab) ends in favor of 5 categories, and let's say for arguments sake that the voters understand all options, it is your duty as moderators (yes all 5 of you) to keep the board legitimate, clean, and sensible. Polls are used to gather feedback on a change, not to necessarily decide on a change.

For the record, I am personally okay with subcategories instead of a variable as long as the boards are not duplicated. I don't think the second per track is enough of a reason to choose that over a variable, but that's not my call. Maybe those few seconds are enough of a reason for people to want subcategories, and I wouldn't get in the way of that if the boards weren't duped. Thanks for reading.

Craigelbagel001 likes this
England

Tbh the point of doing all of this was to make the point of doing runs with characters other than N. Gin/Coco and recently Dingo/Tiny, is the push more competition and evolve the meta. Using variables is borderline hiding away the aspect of what makes increasing the category list in the first place. Yes the stats will be skewed but i believe it is in the best interests of the community and as for the 'All' category, whilst I personally have no gripes with it since Accel and Speed have now been discovered to be very similar, I wouldn't be opposed to removing it just out of pure lack of need with the slight help of easy viewing. But in my eyes, using variables would be a waste to the work already done. I feel like if we can come to that compromise instead of just destroying all the work that has been done by the mods and just since it seems more suitable for such a lively community, I genuinely feel we could have a great looking board.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
Hampshire, England

Ok, so the common consensus is that either of these is the way to go.

  1. Four Different subcategories, 1 for each character, Speed, Balanced, Accel, and Slow.

  2. Create Variables for each different type of character.

I'm not sure if there is a compromise we can find considering how evenly spread this poll is, or if we should go with variables, but again, I will wait for the community's call on that instead of jumping right into any decisions.

One thing I feel like I must say though, and this is by no means calling anyone out, as either 1. You're not in the Crash discord to hear about stuff, or 2. You simply were not around to hear this, but I did give everyone 2 weeks notice that this would happen, and if anyone had said no, this wouldn't have gone ahead, but for some reason, no one said anything until the boards were already up. It would have saved me and the other mods a lot of time.

Either way, that doesn't matter now, because now we're making progress. so, anyone have any compromises or further suggestions?

Jumpyluff likes this