[quote] - Yeah, true, but not all tool assisted runs do this. I mean, how do you even ¤find¤ frame perfect glitches, let alone build a program to actually ¤perform¤ them? It takes skill. [/quote] wrong, luck is all it takes. why do you think some tricks are only found years after people start running it ?

Anyway, we've clearly explained everything multiple times by now. Either you can't read, or you just don't want to understand, in wich case i suggest you just stop there. There isn't any point anymore.

"Semantics, the thread". Nice.

"theoretically you can achieve perfection" - I have a couple of issues with this statement.

1. Can't you say the same thing of running any game in any manner? Theoretically, you can play a perfect game without tools, but does that make it any less fun to do? Do people stop trying to beat a record, even if the person who made the run feels like he did everything perfectly?
2. The phrase "theoretically you can achieve perfection" may or may not be true, but it doesn't really mean anything. Not really. I deal with this problem all the time in the real world. Someone will come up to me with a block of code and say "The run-time complexity is blah, which is better than the original." So I'll say, "That's fine, I accept that, but can you do better?", and that's the stumbling block for most people. Sure, you might have the record, but how do you know it can't be improved? Can you prove it can't be beaten? It's much harder to do than you might think, and easy to say if you don't think to hard about it, but it's a fundamental part of the programming paradigm that many people don't understand.

Sure, anyone can ¤make¤ a TAS run, just as anyone can do a normal run, but that doesn't mean it will be any good.

"If everyone simply did TAS, we'd probably have a ton of "dead" games by the end of 2017."

• Usain Bolt currently holds the WR for 100m, but does that mean that schools around the world stop holding competitions because that time cannot be beaten? Do people stop playing basketball because there are pro teams better than they ever care to be? No, of course not. TAS runs are in a separate category for people with different interests. That is all I am trying to say.

[QUOTE]TAS runs are in a separate category for people with different interests. That is all I am trying to say.[/QUOTE] Wait if all you're trying to say is TAS runs are in a different/separate category, then why the hell has this thread generated 3 pages???

Literally one of the first things someone said is that this run isn't valid because it was tool assisted and should be treated as such.

I thought Usain Bolt was the perfect example for describing how knowing that someone can perform better with better tools doesn't necessarily make trying to do it yourself any less enjoyable.

This thread generated three pages because my opinion is not the only opinion. That is one of the problems this site currently has; there are no site-wide rules or regulations for what can be submitted and what can't. If you look at the first page of this thread, the argument is made that tool assisted runs shouldn't be included because they aren't the traditional style of running. Then the question becomes are there certain kinds of speedruns that should be excluded from "speedrun.com"? The problem is that there is not a universally agreed upon definition of what is and what is not allowed in a submission. It seems to me that each subgroup thinks their own rules are the only rules because they are the ones that best apply to that particular sub group.

The not stepping on toes bit makes sense, but can't you make the same argument for SDA? If SDA exists, why should we have player made runs here? If it were my site, I'd form a partnership with tasvideos and have links to their stuff so the benefits become mutual. (but it's not my site, I know..)

"The drive in speedrunning is putting in the practice and effort to make yourself be a better player in your own rights."

• This is a personal opinion. ¤Your¤ drive may be to make yourself better (at playing the game), but someone else's drive might be to learn how an ambiguous problem can be approached with the given variables. For instance (I don't know how it works with sports games) but if you are only given the variables for the player's location on the court, how do you calculate the amount of time to hold down the 'shoot' button and what angle to shoot at? It's not so simple. It's not always about hitting buttons at the right time. As another example, let's say you're writing a bot for a game in which a given number of objects appear on the screen. You are given the locations of these objects and all you have to do is collect the objects and return to the starting point. How do you calculate the shortest route? Where do you even begin? Do you see how some people can find this kind of thing to also be challenging yourself to be a better programmer?

Just stop responding to this thread, no matter what is said, he will just continue on with his long winded argument, only way to end it is to just stop ourselves.

"If SDA exists, why should we have player made runs here?"

Fundamentally different objectives of the websites. SDA is not, has never been and has never purported to be, a record-tracking website.

This website is a record-tracking website. Or at least a decent enough community-driven approximation of one. Still, you get the idea. They do different things.

I dunno what the rest of the argument is at all, it's really confusing and hard to follow, just don't do TAS things in a real-time speedrun, ok?

Somehow, that response managed to be both succinct ¤and¤ punchy. Impressive.

Anyway, think I have a better understanding of a general mindset of how things work around here. I don't think there ever really ¤was¤ an argument. (Does there have to be an argument?) It felt more like a conversation to me. Give a guy a day off and a pot of coffee, and he takes over some poor user's thread. Heh.

I say go to the TAS site and look at submissions. It only gets accepted if the community finds it entertaining. TAS and speedrunners do work together to improve games. There are cases where runners asked TAS makers to find an alternative strat for players to make the route more consistant. It is still one community, but different branches. You can even see that in big speedrunning events.

The only thing I would agree on is that there can be a page that has the most common pitfalls or FAQ for new runners. There is s forumpost with it, but newcomers do not always know where to look. A simple link to IF NEW LOOK HERE can help a lot already.

I've never quite understood the point of SDA. Every time I've looked a game up there they have one run of it with like 3 year old strats. And that's ¤if¤ there even is anything for it.

SDA was the first, but only the best submitted run to them gets accepted. They must be done on the official console, so no emulators. And some games only have info on there. But more and more are turning over to speedrun.com and that info now start appearing here as well.

SDA's verification process was also notoriously slow, taking weeks or more to verify submissions.

It just got the point that people wanted to track more than just the best run of a game and wanted to have a place where all runs of all categories could be shown off and so LBs were born through google docs, separate websites and now srcom.

But they....¤don't¤ have the best runs of their games. At least not a lot of them. Why even bother if you don't keep it up to date? Like here's one of my runs -> http://speeddemosarchive.com/InfamousFoB.html According to that the best time is 29:30. The actual rekkie is nearly six minutes faster -> http://www.speedrun.com/run/9mroxrgm

I'm not sure what I expect anyone to tell me, but yeah, not seeing the point. Someone might look that game on their site and be way, way misinformed about the run (it's not even sk8's PB anymore).

Maybe I phrased it wrong. What I meant was that for a long time SDA did have the best runs (that people cared to submit anyway) and eventually people moved to their own LBs so more runs could be tracked efficiently in a competitive setting. So the current runs on there might have/probably were the best at some point, but aren't anymore because so many people stopped submitting them to the site.

I'm not going to defend the Roger Rabbit runner, but I do feel there should be some global rules page. People submit runs with Turbo or left+right or runs on outdated emulators like zsnes all the time. And I don't really blame them, because the only way to find out these things are wrong is to already be really involved in the community or find some old SDA rules pages that don't even apply 100% to speedrun.com or you are lucky and the moderator bothers to put all this stuff that should be global in every category's ruleset.

I think that's one of the advantages of having the first submitter become the mod of a game; it allows a lot of games to be supervised by people who (theoretically) should know their stuff, but it also leaves it open to abuse. As for the rules, I just posted a thread about the definition of "tool-assisted" that I scraped together from various sites and people I contacted in those communities. It's not exactly a "global ruleset", but I think it's a good start.

https://www.speedrun.com/Speedrunning/thread/xjims