Okay. At the end of this post is a poll that you can vote on to have your say on the definition and timing of the 100% category for Spyro 2: Ripto’s Rage (which I will refer to as Spyro 2). This post aims to give you all the information you would possibly need to know so that you can make an informed decision on said poll.
Up until this point, our definition of 100% for Spyro 2 has been the following:
- Timing starts upon gaining control in Glimmer.
- Collect all 14 talismans.
- Collect all 64 orbs.
- Collect all 10,000 gems.
- Defeat all 3 bosses (Crush, Gulp, and Ripto).
- Timing ends upon dealing the last hit to Ripto (the final boss).
However, a valid point has been brought up recently that suggests there is no need to end on the Ripto fight and instead we should be allowed to fight Ripto earlier in the run and end elsewhere once the last gem, orb, etc is collected since that is still 100% game completion. In short: ending a 100% run on Ripto is not an in-game requirement, but a rule that we as a community have set in place.
“Why fight Ripto earlier?” you might ask. Once Ripto is defeated:
- Sparx’s gem collecting range is increased.
- Spyro is granted the swim, climb, and headbash abilities even if you did not buy them.
- All 8 instances of Moneybags throughout the game are automatically paid for, at no cost to you.
Theoretically, defeating Ripto earlier will save time in a 100% speedrun because of the above-mentioned points, as well as the fact that you will cut out a few load screens since you won’t have to revisit Winter Tundra or exit whichever level you choose to finish in.
In the context of speedrunning 100% categories: if a game has an alternate ending that is only triggered upon 100% completion, then the run must end at that point. There are many games that follow this concept, but I feel that Crash Bandicoot: Warped (which I will refer to as Crash 3) is a good example since many Spyro players are likely familiar with the Crash Bandicoot series.
In a 105% run of Crash 3, the Cortex fight is the final boss. When Cortex is defeated, you are rewarded with the running shoes which counts for 1% of your total. It is entirely possible to fight Cortex before you have the other 104%, but it is defined in the category that, if you do fight Cortex early, you MUST fight Cortex a second time at the end of the run. This is because defeating Cortex with 105% gives an alternate ending cutscene than defeating Cortex at any other point in the game.
This brings us back to Spyro 2. Defeating Ripto with 100% game completion presents absolutely nothing different compared to defeating Ripto with minimal game completion. Defeating Ripto at the end of a 2 hour 100% run is absolutely no different than defeating Ripto at the end of a 10 minute any% run. And this is what stems the question “Why do we need to end a 100% run at Ripto?”.
With the current definition of Spyro 2 100%, if a player chooses to fight Ripto earlier in the run then they must fight Ripto a second time at the end of their run - despite the fact that nothing different happens. If the community decides that ending at Ripto is unnecessary however, then players are free to defeat Ripto at any point in the run and end their timer upon collecting the final gem, orb, etc in whichever level they choose to finish in.
Hopefully I didn't go too overboard, but I feel as if I covered all the necessary points in good detail. If you have any questions or remarks, feel free to respond. Thank you for reading.
“Should a Spyro 2 100% run HAVE to end at Ripto?”: http://strawpoll.me/3695597
"...and end their timer upon collecting the final gem, orb, etc in whichever level they choose to finish in."
To me this is completely arbitrary and it would make (almost) every run end in a completely different point, making it really confusing at the end.
If fighting Ripto early is allowed, then we need to set a common point to end the run and not let each player decide where they want to end their run at.
I'm not against the idea of fighting Ripto early, but I am against the idea of ending the run in a random gem/orb/talisman. It just feels weird.
If it's faster and ends with 100% completion, I say go for it.
Sure, the end of the run may now be anticlimactic as hell, but who cares. You still get 100%. If you don't like Ripto early then don't do it. It's that simple.
Like, we're speedrunners. Going fast should be our priority. Yeah changes suck especially when they make the end of the run really boring, but if it's faster we shouldn't complain.
EDIT: And we do have a common point to end the run. 100% completion. Yeah stopping when you grab a gem or orb or tali is weird, but that is the common point. 100%. No matter how you do the run, Ripto early or not, you finish when you achieve 100%.
Well, seems as though it's a case of "Should the run look complete and we've done it this way for years" against "We can get 100% faster".
Imo the aim of a speedrun is to go fast, not do some "complete" run to please an audience. Allowing early Ripto isn't going to force everyone to do it that way, so they can always beat Ripto at the end of the run if they prefer. Obviously all the past times will then become "obsolete", in a sense.
I don't know about others games and if they have any similar issues, but if fighting Ripto a second time at 100% doesn't give you anything extra then why bother? It could be seen only as another entity on the run that you need to complete to get 100%.
Just my opinion anyway, I don't play Spyro 2, so I'm looking at it from a general point of view for a run.
I guess another thing is having credits somewhere in the middle instead of ending with them, but you still load them at some point.
E: Don't fight Oxide twice in Bash 2hundo B)) (meme point, but still stands)
tl;dr go fast
Nattyone720: E: Don't fight Oxide twice in 2hundo B)) (meme point, but still stands)
Are you referring to CTR 101%? If so, that's because there is a different ending when you've gotten all relics. Defeating Oxide early would give no advantage AND you would have to do it again, as the ending is different.
@Nattyone720
;A; i was tired, read it as hundo for some reason. But yeah, Bash is also a good example.
If you can give me an example of a 100% Speedrun that can end on final boss but doesn't even if it doesn't have an alternative ending, then I want to hear it. I don't mind fighting Ripto early if it saves time, but fight him twice.
Jak II is not a good example, since the final boss unlocks things and cannot be beaten again.
It's exactly like Nattyone said, the entire argument against this is 'It doesn't feel right/it's not how we've always done it' Which is a very trivial argument that is based on pure opinion with no real fact as to why it shouldn't be allowed. It's faster, this is a speedrun, why shut down something that's faster for no good reason?
This was the way I beat the game as a kid, I don't speedrun this category yet, but this is a legit way to beat the game 100%. You will have a 100% save file if you save the game, which is essentially what the run is supposed to go for. Ending at Ripto might "feel" better but there is no other reason to do it, also forcing a route is bad and people can finish at Ripto or do it earlier as they please.
If you're not going to end on Ripto, at least end by opening the door to fireball. For Spyro 1 and 3 there is a clearly defined ending so I'd suggest avoiding making Spyro 2 appear completely arbitrary to the general viewing audience.
As good as it would be to have that consistent endpoint, changing the definition there has the problem of invalidating every single run up to this point, since the existing runs don't.
Spyro 1 120% endpoint is on triggering the ending, not on collecting 120%. Otherwise you could stop the timer about 6 seconds sooner on collecting the last gem. Spyro 2 100% was on triggering the ending, but this was done at the same time as collecting 100% by beating Ripto (at least I'm pretty sure Ripto adds to %) Spyro 3 117% endpoint is on triggering the 2nd ending, but this also happens at the same time as collecting 117%. Perhaps Enter the Dragonfly is the best example, here. "Timing ends when dealing the last hit to Ripto." However, the final phase of Ripto is unlocked when the % counter is at 100.
There's arguments for both sides, but ending on Ripto is consistent with other Spyro games.
As a final note: not allowing this can always be changed later, but allowing Ripto to not be the endpoint can't be undone without invalidating runs. This last point is why I'm against the Dragon Shores fireball door idea.
Can someone explain to me why having a "consistent" end is more important than a good time? Or an improved world record? Are you all caring so much about the viewers that the actual speedrun part doesn't matter? Yes we all enjoy watching speedruns, but is it really that bad to end on a random gem and, god forbid, confuse your audience who love you so much? Is finishing a run in a level really going to make the 100% category "arbitrary" (I mean c'mon what's that about)?
What's the big deal about consistency too? Why does every Spyro game have to end on the credits?
Yes I'm ignorant, and no one is saying you have to do the fastest route, but at least allow it as an option. If someone gets a record and second place doesn't want to do the best route then that's too bad for them, they're choosing to handicap themselves.
I've also heard that some people may not want to do early Ripto because they've worked so hard on their route, or they don't feel like adapting. But again, no one said you have to do it.
The point I'm making is to allow early Ripto, and then everyone can choose what they want to do with regards to their own run.
Also the poll is probably not the best way to decide this as it's open to everyone, and that's basically getting rid of the whole point of this thread.
Here's a good example. Crash Bandicoot 100% runs achieve the completion before the end of the run. That is you achieve 100% upon receiving the 26th gem. That being said, the run ends when you trigger the alternate ending. In Spyro 2 the proof of achieving 100% is the door opening to fireball but its pointless to include credits and walking over to the door in a speedrun. In fact Cypryss did originally include that in his original timing. If you're not going to end the run at the credits, then that changes things. In Spyro 1 & 3 the proof of completion is accessing the final level which leads to ending on credits. In Spyro 2 the proof is the door so I suggest if you're not going to end on credits, then end on the door.
Whether or not it should be allowed on the other hand is a different discussion, but hey, what's one more category to Spyro 2.
Since I made the original post here, I’ve discussed this topic a number of times with many people. I wish that I’d made this post sooner (or even updated my original post) but I guess that I needed those discussions for me to realise my thoughts for this post. Anyway: better late than never, right?
First of all, I wanted to say that my view on the topic is that Spyro 2 100% runs should end at Ripto. In my personal opinion: the idea of a 100% speedrun is to achieve 100% and then "beat the game" - in that order. Of course that's not entirely feasible in every game ever made - since some games require you to fight the final boss before you can collect everything necessary for 100% completion - but in a game like Spyro 2 where you're free to leave the final boss until last, I think that you should leave it until last so that you can end your run as you "end the game" rather than ending the run in some random spot in a random level.
I understand that this is where the controversy lies (and at least a few people want to cry over this idea, since it isn't as fast as humanly possible by their side of the argument) but I just wanted to share my opinion as others have shared theirs - and both sides of the argument are equally valid.
With that being said (about my view on the topic): in my quest to make the original post as unbiased toward my own opinion, others have pointed out to me that I may have actually gone too far and made the post biased toward the other side of the argument (not ending the run on Ripto). I’m not sure how many people will read this thread now that the topic is pretty much resolved, but I felt like this was something I wanted to make a note of.
Anyway: the poll has ended now, and with a pretty even split for and against ending the run at Ripto. After discussing the issue further as a community, to satisfy both sides we have decided that ending a 100% run elsewhere than Ripto will be allowed as long as a sorting feature is implemented on the leaderboards so that runs not ending at Ripto can be filtered out (for those that wish runs to continue ending at Ripto as they always have done). It might take some time before this change is implemented, since the sorting features are still under development across the whole site, but this is our plan.
Thanks again to everyone who voted and participated in this month’s episode of Twitch drama. ;)
^ I know this is kind of seen as finalized because of Ty's post, buuuuuut, I wanna add my two cents. Note: This is NOT my opinion on whether it SHOULD be a thing, but, rather, my thoughts on how it should be handled, should it be completely confirmed as a legitimate thing.
Full thoughts on it: http://pastebin.com/V8NefSDn
Tl;dr → Sprodos is a level-based game. If you get 100%, you SHOULD still finish the level, either by exiting it or entering the exit portal, just like beating Ripto, in plainest terms, is literally BEATING or FINISHING something. Just getting the last gem, last orb, or last talisman makes no sense in a level-based game, where finishing levels is the objective. Without Early Ripto, beating the level and 100% acquisition happen at the same time, so there's no argument there. So the objective SHOULD be finishing a level AND acquiring 100% completion to meet the needs of the run itself.
In Twinsanity, being an open-world game, the ONLY "beating the level" thing exists when you enter the next HUB, since all levels in a HUB exist on the same map, so in the event you miss something, the timer should be stopped when you collect the last gem or finish the final boss, whichever comes first. The objective should be 100% acquisition because there isn't a definitive "beat the level".
I feel that this distinction between open-world games and level-based games should be the deciding factor in this IF Early Ripto becomes something that is allowed in 100% runs.
An idea occurred to me today. Having a filter option for runs with early Ripto is a bad solution (due to overwriting faster times without, making the leaderboard less useful). Since the community is completely split on this (58 for allowing, 57 for disallowing at the moment), why not make 100% (early Ripto) a miscellaneous category for now? I'd expect opinions to change as runs are done and putting a category with it out there would encourage those runs.
If this is done, one of three things will happen.
- No one's opinions change. In this case, tracking 100% with early Ripto separately keeps 100% as it is and still creates a place for runs with early Ripto.
- Most people agree that early Ripto should be allowed. In this case, fold the early Ripto times into normal 100%. This is irreversible, though, which is why an even split doesn't make this a good idea as opinions are fickle.
- Most people agree it shouldn't be allowed. In this case, it can still stay as a misc. category for those who want it, and it's not allowed in 100%.
It's not a perfect solution, but it's better than the proposed filter.
