Here's a draft of some updated rules. This one is for 7 character; the only difference in the other categories will be the first line. The biggest new thing I put in here is exact definitions for when the timer should start and stop. In the past we haven't been exactly synchronized on when that time should be, and a few of the top runs currently have some very silly timings. (like death's 7char WR starts the timer after he enters the first item room.) I picked start and end standards that seemed to make the most sense while also being easy to see and measure on the screen.

Please post any concerns in this thread.

Text of rules draft follows:

Beat the chest with Isaac, Maggy, Cain, Judas, Blue Baby, Eve, and Samson, in any order. (These are the original 7 characters.)

You must use a fully unlocked file.

Time starts on the first frame that the floor name banner starts to become visible at the beginning of the run, and ends on the first frame of the entering-the-chest animation at the end. (This is basically beginning of input to end of input.)

You have to have a timer visible in your vod. It can't be paused for any reason.

You can't replace savefiles during a run or manipulate savefiles by making them read-only.

If you start a run with a bonus item from Eden's Blessing, you measure time from the start of the run that took the Eden's Blessing.

I think that timer should end on chest drop, not on entering-the-chest animation, it adds additional x seconds to your run if you happen to have megablast, and you can't enter chest before it runs out.

If it ends on chest drop, would we have to put in those ridiculous rules about how you have to survive anything left in the room, even though your timer is already stopped? I always thought those rules were really confusing and weird in the tournaments that used them, but the alternative of dying after killing the boss but the run still counting is also really weird. The issue just goes away if we time it based on entering the chest.

Then in splits of characters in middle of a run you need to jump into chest, or can you just exit to menu? because in current circumstances you could exit to menu instead.

Did dea1h retime and account for the timer? It is really silly to stop and start the timer every single item room when you can simply start it after and retime if the run actually works out.

Thanks for taking some time to draft these rules and giving us the opportunity to discuss them.

The timer stuff seems to harsh, you shouldn't have a streamed run become not legitimate because...you accidentally pause the timer, but retime later...you want to save your sanity and don't start the timer on each reset, but only when you find an item...you want to loop or continue to 11/13 but your timer stopped automatically after the 7th char because you're only using splits for 7 chars, in which case the timer automatically stops. (that's how my 11 and 13 char PBs happened for example, continued a 7 char run and retimed from the vod later, exact down to a second.)

The timing rules are clear and good (after we decide the chest drop vs enter chest part), so it should be no problem to just retime a run if there is a complete vod from streaming.

If your concern is manipulation by having a offline run have the timer stop suddenly and then start again (after actually cutting things out and messing with stuff in the background), I'd be fine with having the no timer stop rule for non-streamed runs, but for streamed runs, I don't see any harm. Maybe I'm missing something?

Additionally, I'd like some wording on the use of certain external tools, like using a reset tool to find a seed. We are not gonna allow that for any category, right? It's a TAS, whether it's used in the actual run or not; the game is modified to allow the fast eden resets; and it would completely break the spirit of running this, give one person an unfair advantage while forcing other people to do the same or demotivate them from even trying. No one in their right mind can think this is fair game. For the record, Zam is still intending to do this and claimed Hyphen said it's ok to use. I'd like some clarification on that.

One thing about a "valid" run. I believe that in order for the run to be considered valid, the video submitted needs to show either the run starting at "new run" or at least a single reset. This is to avoid people who will attempt to use scripts/programs to farm seeds for specific things, run it on a different save file, then go back to the save file where the original seed was found and start from there.

I can also release the eden reset file if anyone is interested. I did it once as a thing and Zamiell asked me for it.

Then in splits of characters in middle of a run you need to jump into chest, or can you just exit to menu? because in current circumstances you could exit to menu instead.

Almost everybody who runs these categories jumps into the chest, don't they? Yeah, we should just put that in the rules.

Did dea1h retime and account for the timer? It is really silly to stop and start the timer every single item room when you can simply start it after and retime if the run actually works out.

No, he did not retime and account for the timer. The current listed time on the leaderboard is as if it was legitimate to start the timer inside the item room. Obviously this just a silly mistake, and we can retime it to change it by the appropriate few seconds. I'm not trying to make a rule about when you have to physically start your timer, but rather what moment actually counts.

The timer stuff seems to harsh, you shouldn't have a streamed run become not legitimate because...you accidentally pause the timer, but retime later

Well, one issue is that if the timer is ever paused while a significant number of frames are dropped in the vod, it would not be possible to reconstruct the correct time. Timing by vod length is not completely accurate. We don't want to invalidate a run because of a second of dropped frames in a 2hr run, do we?

Additionally, I'd like some wording on the use of certain external tools, like using a reset tool to find a seed. We are not gonna allow that for any category, right? I actually think this should be fine, as long as there is no automated input after the point where the timer is supposed to start. It will cost the person using the tool some number of seconds to realize the tool found results and start playing the game. I'm not locked into this opinion.

One thing about a "valid" run. I believe that in order for the run to be considered valid, the video submitted needs to show either the run starting at "new run" or at least a single reset. Okay, I agree.

One question I have: what exactly does the "eden reset file" do and how was it created?

I think the resetting for items is fine, as long as the seed is run without quitting from the game. I saw Zam had found a "good" seed, left the game immediately then ran the seed on a different file to optimize it. When satisfied with how to run it, he then continued the original game where he "found" the seed and submitted that. I'm assuming that is kind of against an unseeded ruleset in that he at some point did type in the seed to run it. This would also require the person doing this to be in front of it the whole time, just removing the keystrokes. I would assume timing would still start at the same frame (the banner loading in), so if you aren't paying attention you'll lose the time it takes you to see it.

The eden reset tool removes the block in code that is enforced for the Eden ID. All characters use the same reset function, however there is a block specifically for Eden. eur0pa originally posted about this on reddit, and I took the chance to make it into a ¤functioning¤ tool that you can turn on/off with a hotkey. See link https://www.reddit.com/r/themoddingofisaac/comments/4bqxdq/r_to_restart_eden_ce_aob_script/

The only thing it does do is remove the need for eden tokens (no tokens are removed when using it), which is arbitrary and I don't think it really matters.

I honestly think that using this tool is fine as long as you are not doing it mid run. I mean, if you do 11char run and you start with eden as your first character, using tool is fine because it doesn't affect time of run, hence you don't time reset on first character. But if you run eden as for example 3rd character, tool effectively speed up your run because you reset faster. I think that's the only argument against it besides "It's not vanilla".

From a general speedrunning perspective - if I may be so bold and claim that perspective for myself - the discussion about the legitimacy of manipulating game files with a tool/script confuses me big time. Even just reading the game's memory for the outcome of a reset (and starting a speedrun depending on that outcome thereafter) CLEARLY would qualify as tool assistance. While speedrunning communities of particular games can, of course, agree on certain special rulesets that fit the particular game, certain very basic general speedrunning rules should always be complied with for the classic categories. Every community or individual is free to maintain separate leaderboards for categories that don't meet the criteria of speedruns for the sake of fun, competition, whatever, you name it.

There is an in-game HUD that does the exact same thing that the item tracker does, but we use the Item Tracker to pull the information out of a log file that the game produces. We are not reading any game memory. The only thing that actively reads game memory is MissingHUD which shows the exact number values of all stats in game and displays them via code injection on screen. https://github.com/networkMe/missinghud2

Okay. Thanks for explaining the technical details! Since you understand those details better than I do: would you say that the current world record in Rebirth - 1 character by Zamiel is tool-assisted or not? I stated above that, depending on the game, there can be and have been "special" rulesets for many particular games like omitting parts of runs from being timed (skipping an intro cutscene, disregarding after-credits inputs, etc.; choosing start and end points of runs that are convenient to split on or retime) or starting runs from a fully unlocked save file, etc I see them as convenience adjustments for the runners, the audience and moderators who verify runs alike. It is up to each community to weigh those adjustments against the requirements of what constitutes a speedrun. In the case of this very game here, there have already been several of those "convenience adjustments" that build upon each other:

1. The game is run from a 100% save file. (Timing starts after all characters have been unlocked instead of from a clean save file like it would be required in the majority of speedruns)
2. BoI run timing starts after choosing 1 or several starting items through consecutive resetting. (In the majority of speedruns this would be included in the timing.) Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against those adjustments. However, adding a 3rd layer where a script(!!!) further simplifies the process of starting a run is - in my understanding of a speedrun - not acceptable. This is a no-brainer for me. A tool is very clearly (and openly) used to assist the runner. Is it a convenience adjustment? Sure it is. But does that still fit into what comprises a speedrun? Clearly not, in my opinion.

As to the missinghud2 topic, I lack insight on the actual effect of it on speedruns above a certain "skill level". I would guess that experienced runners would be somewhat aware of their stats regardless and it's mainly there for the convenience of the audience? I'm too much of a layman in Isaac speedrunning to have a clear opinion on this. In any case, I don't think it can be used as an argument to validate the use of an input script so the topic should be dealt with in its own context, IF it is even necessary to discuss it at all.

Here's another draft:

Beat The Chest and enter the chest that drops after the boss, as Isaac, Maggy, Cain, Judas, Blue Baby, Eve, and Samson, in any order. (These are the original 7 characters.)

You must use a fully unlocked file.

Time starts on the first frame that the floor name banner starts to become visible at the beginning of the run, and ends on the first frame of the entering-the-chest animation at the end. You're not allowed to use any kind of automated input during this time.

Your video has to include the screen before the run starts, which will either be the main menu or another run you reset on.

You have to have a timer visible in your video. It's okay if you don't start and stop it at exactly the right times, but you shouldn't pause it during the run. Retiming a run should be done by adjusting the start and end times of the displayed timer, rather than by measuring the length of the video.

You can't replace savefiles during a run or manipulate savefiles by making them read-only.

If you start a run with a bonus item from Eden's Blessing, you measure time from the start of the run that took the Eden's Blessing.

I edited the categories on this site to all have appropriate variants of this rule text. I also retimed death's 7char run; it was only actually off by one second.