I want to respond to a couple points made here so far:
@Ringo and @Marsh: I don't like the idea of a cut-off time, as it's fairly likely somebody could have a PB just above what the cut-off time is, and then if they PB using the strat again and go below the cut-off time, they can't submit their run? The fact that this even could happen is what discourages me from considering this as a viable option.
@Cyberdemon and @Beef: The idea of sub-categories for every category doesn't sound all too appealing either because the fundamental nature of the run and the strats used do not change whether or not disc eject is used. It is just an alternative method for performing the exact same skips and does not alter the route in any way. If disc eject had the effect that, say, memory manipulation does in Crash Bash, where the entire nature of the run is changed, then I could see the merits for having separate leaderboards, but due to what it actually does, I don't see this as the appropriate course of action.
@Rob: Allowing a strat in an attempt to mitigate the advantage that a particular console may have over another console I don't believe to be a valid reason for allowing said strat.
Thank you again everyone for the discussion that's taken place so far. A decision regarding this will be made within the next week or so.
no it should not be a vote. it should be a unanimous decision by the moderators/top runners (in this case just joe) i earlier suggested sub categories because this would be the easiest thing to do. separates it so that people that physically can't disc eject has a fair chance for a good time/wr while not letting a time like joe's current wr unbeatable because of not allowing a huge time saving strat. i feel like this would be more widely accepted if disc manip was used more and saved more time but currently it's only big time save that doesn't have an rta viable work around is down the tubes. if we could find a faster rta viable skip for the bell door in DtT that doesn't use disc manip, i would personally be fine with banning it since there would be other easy and fast ways to get around all of its uses but unfortunately that's not the case. i think that separating it into subcategories would be fair to everyone until such a strat is found. it may seem a little complicated but i promise it isn't. it's just as simple as making a little checkbox on the submission forms that says "Disc Eject Used" or something and it splits runs that way. to me, this seems like both the fairest and easiest solution. and i am yet to hear any good argument against it. i get that it's just separating one small change but at high level play an entire minute makes a big deal and it's near impossible for anyone to compete with joe's current time without using it. separating it preserves the current time while letting others that can't use it still compete. if you asked me, i would personally prefer to run with disc eject, mainly because it is faster but also because the swimming section in down the tubes can eat my ass.
hell, even just making them separate categories and hiding them under miscellaneous would be fine in my opinion, but i think some kind of separation is the best solution given the current circumstances. i'll try and toy around with down the tubes and see if i can help find something to make this issue go away but right now separation seems like the best option to me. in the end, the decision is up to joe because he's really the only one with enough knowledge/dedication to the game to really deserve to make these calls. all we can do is hope to give him enough different perspectives and opinions to help him make a more objective decision that benefits everyone.
After reading through and weighing the arguments presented on this subject, as well as after some internal discussions with the other moderators, it has been decided that disc tray manipulation, or disc eject, is no longer allowed in the 3 main categories for Pac-Man World. It will continue to be allowed in 0 Points at this point in time since that run cannot currently be completed without it.
This decision was not an easy one to make. The inescapable fact that disc eject is hardware manipulation, coupled with the fact that it is not necessary to complete runs of the main categories led us to this decision. We believe that speedruns of this game, much like other games, should take advantage of things solely within the game and not abuse things outside of the game in order to manipulate things within it. The time difference between using and not using the exploit we deemed to be irrelevant, as this was a decision based on whether or not manipulating the console itself should be allowed.
Any runs currently present on the leaderboards that utilized disc eject will remain, as they complied with the ruleset at the time they were completed. Any runs completed and submitted after this post that use disc eject will be rejected. Anyone who has completed a run before this post was made and has not submitted it yet will have one week to submit it, as those runs also complied with the rules at the time they were completed. After this grace period, any runs submitted using disc tray manipulation will be rejected.
I want to thank everyone for the discussion that took place regarding this matter. I will leave this thread open for a short time so discussion here can continue if people still have things they would like to say, and once discussion dies down the thread will be locked. Anyone who has questions they do not want to ask in public can feel free to contact me through Discord, Twitch whispers, or whatever medium they see fit. I know that not everyone will agree with this decision, but we feel as though this is the appropriate course of action going forward for this game and for this community.
-Joe, Rob, and Beef
I know a decision has already been made, but I do want to make a comment that I agree with Beef about the following: "even just making them separate categories and hiding them under miscellaneous would be fine in my opinion" If there is some sort of push to have runs in the future with DE just because it's easier or some people want to do it for the memes (e.g. they saw it at AGDQ and thought it was a cool thing), a misc category is where I believe it should go. At the moment, though, that doesn't look necessary, but I thought I'd mention this while the topic is still fresh. :)
The reason separate categories was not made was mostly due to the fact that so little of the route would have changed. Had the new gate skip without DE not been found, it is likely this is what would have occurred. With so little changing however, it didn't seem to require a whole separate category.
Ok it seems discussion is done here, so I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread. As for adding miscellaneous categories, I've been asked about a number of them for this game, and I will add reasonable miscellaneous categories if there is interest in them/if somebody actually does a run of them, e.g. 95%. The same will hold true for DE - if enough people want to continue to do runs using it, I will make it a miscellaneous category, but for now, it is not necessary.
Thank you again everyone!
