So then will the categories become controller and keyboard, versus console and emulator?

Are there even enough keyboard players to make a category worth it? Once Xiu's run is removed, there might only be 1 or 2 people, basically making it a meme category. Wouldn't it just be easier to ban keyboards?

Thoughts/ suggestions?

Hmm, well...

For the Japanese version, there are eight emulator runners, and for the North American version there are five emulator runners including the "cheated" run. I haven't checked each of these run videos to see if there's any hints as to the input method used, but if wall-climbing is so much easier on keyboard then I'd be willing to guess that many of the emulator players use keyboard, unless specifically stated otherwise.

The potential issue I'd see with banning keyboard play entirely is that we'd pretty much be going on the "honor" system when it comes to emulator runs. I mean, it's hard/impossible to determine what peripheral someone is using when watching an emulator run, unless they're doing something that's truly and absolutely impossible to perform on a controller.

Well stated. With that said, how would we know people are using the keyboard category? We'd be using the honor code for that as well. There's simply no way of knowing for sure.

I agree though that the better system might be to combine the emu and consoles again, but separate keyboards and controllers.

Just wish there was a way to see what was being used. Xiu was very honest about using a keyboard, even made it clear in his runs from the typing sounds.

Thanks 100T and Riche. So...Like 100T said,I think we should do now: -At least for now GOTVG should be banned in both NG1-3 (NES) runs -And take down GOTVG NG1-3 runs

• It is strongly encouraged to use FCEUX 2.2.2 version or above -At last I think input devices other than controller should be allowed (joystick keyboard)

Um...I agree to revert the leaderboard to normal.

@kokorowolf I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your points, but can you go a little bit into more detail why you would like keyboards to be allowed?

Something long, but I think it's important.

I'd like to run on Emu, portable, convenient, it's mean that speedrun at everywhere, just need a PC and a controller. I love this feeling. Console runs is troublesome for me.

BUT! I said the Emu/console separation is a great improvement for the NG3 speedrun. Why? Maybe you will feel that I'm a strange person, so let me explain it.

For keyboard, 3 fingers control U/L/R (D is useless when wall climb) is different from use thumb control cross button, it is just a little difference as I think, not an advantage.

My opinion of keyboard

• keyboard is just a input device, it same as wii controller/arcade joystick or something else.

my opinion of emu/console/gotvg

• both of Fceux and console is good, ban gotvg

HOWEVER! That's based on an important premise that:

THE RUNNER DOESN'T WANT TO CHEAT.

Please consider the following situation:

1. As I said keyboard is different from controller, if someone wants to turn the difference into an advantage, he can use L+R such as gotvg, I think it's cheat rather than keyboard advantage.

2. We known that in NG1 have a skill that sword cancel, and there is quick sword in NG3. For NG1, set D+B in one button on the keyboard, as far as I know xiu invented it on gotvg, that's a huge advantage in some quick kill.Also in NG3, set U+A in one button on the keyboard, made sword cancel more easier. That's a way of cheating that we will NEVER be found in a video if the runner wants to hide it.

Something what I hate is cheat that we can't find out in the video and can't keep through rules, NOT Emu. I like running on emu as I said at the beginning.

Some people and something happened when I run NG3 already reduce my enthusiasm of speedrun, I really don't want it happen in there again.

So my vote is

• Ban gotvg
• If we can't control the cheat through the rules, just separates the categories
• Implement above two in both NG nes series.

PS: Set multiple keys in one button through the Emu or some software, that's a harm for not only NG series, but also some games we haven't discovered yet.

I've been watching some beco's stream recently. He tried to use quick sword in final boss fight, I didn't use it in speedrun before because it risky and just save a little bit time.

But, once he or someone use it in speedrun successfully and beat the WR, other runners who wants to beat the WR must use quick sword too. At that time, if someone use emu and U+B, and we can not find it out.

Perhaps, in NG1 if some one use emu and D+B beat Arcus's WR.

If the runner wants to hide that, we can do nothing. So, I think the separation is not the best solution but it worked.

That is my exact logic. The problem is not just the keyboard speed enhancements, which has been proven to be something like 0.42ms faster for every key press, or the fact it's often easier to use a keyboard for difficult maneuvers like slash cancels, mashing, wall climbs, etc. but that there is an unknown to them. We don't know if someone is cheating or not. There is literally no possible way of knowing. Simply showing the emulator window, or key inputs will not prove anything. Unless there is a camera showing their hands and the buttons being used, it's left to taking their word alone. And in speedrunning, unknowns are just asking for someone to come along and take advantage of that and cheat.

There is no easy solution for that. I don't like the idea of separating the categories, but I think for a game like NG, it might be a necessity. While as of right now, there are no known cheaters (do we call Xiu's run cheating?), this is futureproofing. What we don't want, is 5 years down the line, to find out the WR holder (whoever that might be) was cheating all along.

Being scared of cheaters was one of the reasons why I wanted it separated in the first place but I think we should merge the leaderboards again and if someone is doing shady stuff we just ask them to prove that they can do what they're doing with webcam or something. We know Arcus can do the mashcanceling fast since we see him on stream all the time, but it someone on emulator and no webcam etc does some crazy stuff all off a sudden I think it's fair of us to ask the person to prove themselves, and if someone called me out on something like that I would be more than happy to show as much as I can in order to prove myself. Kinda like when we reached out to Firemizuque about his NG2 run asking him stuff and to prove that he could do what he did in the run. It sucks having to do that, but I think that's better than having the leaderboards separated.

I would like to know also if you guys are ok with me taking down the 12:41 run due to banned emulator and multiple inputs?

I would say we remove the run and then reach out to Xiu and let him know our reasons. So he doesn't feel like we just removed his run out of spite or something, which might discourage him from future runs, so long as they are done legit, on "legal" emulators or console.

Yes, like Riche said, asking someone to prove himself through something like a webcam is a good and friendly way for emu player. If we use this way, the problem is the standard of the proving. we all know the WR always determined by the second. Something like the mashcanceling or some crazy skill, there is a difference between 'can do it' and 'do it in a brilliant run', least of all in a WR run. just like we have 'sum of best' in ourselves splits but hard to reach it. To make the proving rules it's a big worry. But, I like this idea. It's good for the emu runners.:)

I agree, Riche nailed it. Would still love to see keyboards in their own category or banned. I don't see it happening though, as it doesn't seem to be a popular option.

Anyone of you have contact with Xiuluowentian? Would like to tell him that we're taking down his run because of what we discussed and if he wants to get back on the leaderboard he will have to do it on an approved emulator like FCEUX.

@InfestedRiche I think FCEUX (FCEUX 2.2.2 version or above) is the best emulater for us.I mean we Chinese runners. And my vote is: -At least for now GOTVG should be banned in both NG1-3 (NES) runs -And take down GOTVG NG1-3 runs (Especially Xiuluowentian's NG3,juzi87 and jlt363093's NG1.) Um...I am sorry.Over.I am really not good at English.

@kororowolf your English is great! You've been a huge help in figuring out some solutions. I really appreciate your help on this matter. I think it's important to get feedback from other Chinese runners on this since I personally know very little about Chinese emulators.

Sounds like a good plan. I fully support all these changes.

Perhaps placing keyboards and controllers into separate categories? Looking at a few other forums for different games, it seems like they're working on doing the same thing. You can hook up a keyboard to console or use an emulator. How would we know? We'd have to work with the honor system on it, and as Riche pointed out, if there's suspicion, talk to the runner and find out.

Alright, so, to merge the leaderboards again I would suggest doing what's been suggested in previous posts:

• Make some kind of list for approved emulators
• Require runners faster than 13:30(?) or so to use Frame counter with (no movie) displaying and input display.
• Ban gotvg (already banned in the rules)

I would not really divide controller/keyboard because if it's more of an emulator issue than keyboard, then I see no point in doing that. Plus it's impossible to prove what controller was used during a run anyway.