I'm fairly new to NG3 speedruns. But I have almost 2 years of NG1 speedrunning practice under the belt as well as several other games. And from what I know of NG1 and NG2 is that the keyboard allows inputs faster than a real NES controller can output.
For example. I have used my real NES controller and practiced the quick kill for the 1st boss in the US version, for several hours. I can kill him slightly after his 3rd flame, as other runners have achieved. However, even with a turbo controller, which is obviously cheating, I can't get the same speeds that the WR video has, killing the boss on the 2nd flame. Even when I mimic the exact movements, pixel-perfect positioning and attacks, I can't strike my sword as fast as in the video. The US WR video gets in 2 extra strikes that are simply not possible with a controller, saving time on the run. To be sure, I tested things with a keyboard and sure enough, I could kill the boss on the 2nd flame, same as the US WR video. My attacks were noticeably faster and wall climbing was also easier to get consistent on.
There is a reason keyboard use is not allowed in Ninja Gaiden 1 & 2. I think keyboard use should NOT be allowed for runs in the top 10 or so spots for any NES Ninja Gaiden game, let alone a WR run, which I believe was done on the US NG3 run (you can clearly hear the keyboard inputs). I understand that real hardware is expensive and not everyone can get their hands on them, but when we are talking a WR, we need to be as fair and clear about things as possible.
To be clear, I am not calling anyone a cheater. Using a keyboard is not cheating, but it is, in my opinion, an unfair advantage to using a controller as it makes certain things easier and inputs are faster. I think the rules for NG3 have been too slack since it's not as popular as the other two in the series.
I ask that the NG3 mods please take my consideration into account and look into it. If it is agreed upon, then please look into the current NG3 US WR video and see if you agree that a keyboard was used. If you believe it to be so, perhaps making a separate" keyboard use" category would mitigate things. I do not wish to discredit the amazing run done by Xiuluowentian, simply because he used a keyboard (if he did).
Thank you for taking a look at my request.
I do not really run NG3, but here's my opinion: If keyboard has an advantage over the brick/dogbone then I agree that there should be a separate category.
Although I'm not really sure how we would verify whether a run was done with or without keyboard. How would it be enforced in that case? Should a category separation be made with console/emulator instead perhaps?
I'm not entirely sure either. I'm almost certain Xiuluowentian's run was done on a keyboard, as you can hear the keys as he's pressing them. They do not sound like a controllers buttons being pressed. But his run is fantastic, keyboard or not, he has crazy skills and it is not my intent to discredit them.
However, I feel like even separating them into console/emulator categories is still saying that keyboards should be allowed. For all those who can't afford a console and must use an emulator would still have the unfair advantage placed on them. It would almost be forcing them to use keyboards as well, just to compete with fairness.
Maybe the only fair thing to do to keep things fair among all runners is to create a separate "Keyboard" category. And post a new rule somewhere saying that Keyboards should not be allowed unless in the special category. That's all I've got off the top of my head.
Thoughts?
Before I share my opinions on this: I just had a look at Xiuluowentian's other run on SR.com (Shadow of the Ninja - 11 min flat) and first thing I noticed was that weird message in the bottom left. Since I have no experience with FCEUX, do you know if the message is "recording movie" or "playing movie" or what is it?
About NG3: Yes I do believe that keyboard has a small advantage in the ways that if you master it you can get really fast and consistent wallclimbs and you could potentially learn the ninja fap (jump then repeat B->Up+A as fast as you can without pressing Up+B by mistake since that would use ninpo). You can see Xiuluowentian do this technique on the stage 5 boss while jumping backwards at the same time on top of that. If it weren't for that he actually misses the first 2 attacks while trying this and his fight is ~1 sec slower than mine, I would lean towards this run being spliced. But I do think (hope?) this run is legit, and to be honest what I see from his gameplay he might have an edge on better wallclimbs, maybe 0.5-1 second at most on the whole run (just pulling a number out my ass). What I'm trying to say is that his edge is minimal at this point but I've always been worried of what this could lean into if someone where to beat his time on console and he would come back.
So what to do? I think his run should remain cause my wallclimbing can be on par with his on console (just a weirder motion on a NES d-pad than pianoing the keyboard), BUT I'm voting for an additional rule for the Ninja Gaiden series for all WR runs in the future to be done on console (since we've had a couple of questionable runs to say the least submitted to the NG series).
Sorry for the long post xD
Keyboard is an advantage yes, but i don't think that boss 1 kill is related. That's a technique called ninja fap, and is doable with gamepad as well, i'm pretty sure crakattak and riche can replicate it. Btw i wouldn't force people to run on console, people sometimes use emu because they can't afford a real console setup, and we don't wanna discourage potential new runners. My vote is for that run to stay and to not change the rules at the moment.
I agree with InfestedRiche: for WR runs this rule should apply: must use original hardware. World record runs should be above any reason of a doubt.
I've yet to see anyone else get the level 1 boss quick kill that fast. It's not possible on a gamepad unless I'm completely missing something. I'm aware of the subweapon super speed strat, but increasing your regular attack speed to do an extra 2-3 strikes with your sword? I'm not kidding when I said I spent hours trying to get it once. I tried an emulator, turbo, real NES, etc. It was only when I switched over to keyboard that I was able to replicate the 2nd flame quick kill. I was able to get in a couple extra strikes with my sword that can't be done on a gamepad (as far as I'm aware).
It's unknown how much time could be saved using a keyboard, whether it's utilized at its potential or not. Faster inputs, left + right combos, easier subweapon use, wall climbs, etc. When you single them out it's not a huge deal. If wall climbs save 1-2 seconds, not a big deal. But when you add in (potentially) faster boss kills, easier subweapon use, etc. it starts to add up.
I love the community we are all a part of and the purity of speedrunning. Just like we don't allow people to cheat or use special tools or splice together videos. It is just as important that things be fair across all boards. Wherever you end up on the leaderboards is based purely on skill, not because someone may or may not have had a slight advantage over others.
Anyhow, you guys are the mods here, whatever decision is made, I'm certain it will be in the best interest of the NG3 community. Thanks again for having this discussion and looking into things.
Somewhat off-topic, but is the first boss quick-kill harder to get in the US version? In my JP% run I got a decent kill on the guy:
But since then I've tried playing on my US version and it seems like I can't kill him nearly as fast, but I can't tell if it's just in my head.
I think it's just in your head. I can kill him equally fast in both versions, just nowhere near as fast as you did. Guess my timing is off on the slashes.
Yeah, the sword timing most definitely is not easy, I guess it's perhaps comparable to doing Malth sword-only in NG1. But mashing out those fireballs is also an important part of killing that boss quickly, I remember watching Riche's run of this game and being mystified at how he threw them so quickly against the 6th boss but it honestly isn't super difficult once you know how the cancel input works.
I have something to say about this game. My opinion and something about riche's question.
At first I post my opinion: keyboard should be allowed in the runs, but "gotvg"(the emulator xiu used) should be banned.
Long explanation. Gotvg is an online emulator which many chinses player used, it develops based "virtuanes", not "Fceux". The reason why I think Gotvg should be banned is you can input left and right at the same time when do fast wall climb, for example you can just hold left and jump bottom and then push right bottom rhythmic when you do wall climb on left wall. Through some training that is a huge advantage in fast wall climb. Fceux also has "allowed left and right at the same time" in input setting(i think it should be banned neither, I don't use it）, but it can only used on left wall in fceux. Gotvg can use it on both left and right walls, and gotvg takes it as a default setting can not close, so it is hard to verify it in the video. I don't know whether xiu use it in his run, it's hard to say.(Gotvg also have turbo bottom as default setting that we can not verify in video)
And then something about Riche's question. In xiu' shadow of the ninja video. the message "wu dian ying" is same as"no movie". he used simple chinese version Fceux, so the message is shown by Chinese phonetic alphabet.
"wu2 dian4 ying3" = "no movie" "chong2 she4" = "reset" "dian4 yuan2" = "power"
instead of xiu's run , I doubt shadow of the ninja new WR more then his. In wansheng's video can not see message"reset" "power" "no movie", his input display looks like white and it looks like he do not use NTSC video model.(it's hard to recognize the input display color when used "ntsc" filter in video setting)
At last , about the first boss quick kill and all boss quick kill, controller can do same thing as keyboard with quick ninpo, but controller is hard to use quick sword than keyboard.(i don't mean that use quick sword with keyboard is easy, it's just a little easier than use controller), my opinion is that is an advantage which given by the input equipment, it should be allowed. there are.some people also run with wii controller or arcade controller, keyboard is a kind of controller too.
In summary, I think keyboard should be allowed ,but the "gotvg" should be banned.
Thank you for reading, and apologize for long post with my bad English.
Great information. I was unaware of the "gotvg" emulation or way it works.
So what should we do?
I'd like to see:
- New rule added that bans keyboard use in the future
- New rule added that bans specific emulators to be used
- Separation of categories - Consoles and Emulators
Keeping the two separate would be the easiest solution to keeping things as legit and fair as possible since it is relatively unknown what may or may not be going on with an emulator. At least with real hardware, the likelihood of cheating or having an advantage is lowered. Other than splicing and using a different controller, the variables are reduced. And then banning specific emulators for future use, such as this "gotvg" emulator.
Other than this, I don't know of a solution to this. There seems to be an equal number of for's and against's. One thing that seems to be agreed on by nearly everyone is that a keyboard has an advantage, whether it is minor or large, I think it should be banned for future use. Separating the categories into console and emulator would be the simplest solution of dealing with an already present run that uses a keyboard since simply discrediting the run or removing it altogether would be absurd, unless it was later discovered to not be legit.
I do agree that the boss fight I was questioning earlier, can be done on a controller, while it seems much more difficult to get, it does, in fact, seem possible. I still haven't been able to get the same speeds as AshuraBusted or Xiu on a controller...while a keyboard I could. I do not know about all the boss fights, as I haven't spent as much time practicing the current WR strats on them. But this says to me that a keyboard makes certain things easier, ie. boss fights, wall climbs, sub-weapon use, etc. That by its very definition is an advantage, whether it's large or small.
In speedrunning, that is akin to performance-enhancing in sports, which is not allowed.
Any other ideas or suggestions?
Playing devil’s advocate here, but I think the primary argument for keeping keyboard play legal is that, so long as left+right or turbo aren’t utilized, it doesn’t allow the player to perform any inputs which are truly impossible on a native NES controller, even if it does provide an advantage of ease.
Though, if we’re doing a community vote then I agree with giving console / emulator separate leaderboards.
So lets get down to brass taxes. What should be done? As a community, I think it's important to make a decision that can both be agreed upon but also remain true and pure to the art of speedrunning.
I still keep my original 3 suggestions, No keyboards allowed, New rule to ban specific emulators, separation of categories into console and emulator.
Sounds like as of now, the most agreed upon thing is to separate the categories.
Mods and community, hope to hear the rest of your weigh-ins on this so things can get taken care of.
Right now I'm leaning towards a category separation just because of the potential advantages you can get from emulator runs and it's impossible to know what kind of controller the runner is using (that might give him that advantage)
I suggest doing it like they have on the SM64 leaderboard: https://www.speedrun.com/sm64 (I think emu is a subcategory)
I personally hate the idea of separating the categories, but I think the SM64 route is a good way to go on this.
I would love to see a globally banned emulator list happen. But I know that is beyond the power of mods and this discussion alone and would more than likely, never happen.
But for the sake of NG3 (preferably the whole NG NES series), I think a ban list needs to happen at some point. Those Left + Right inputs and all. Some newer runners don't even know about the left + right inputs. I remember reading a NG2 post about a runner "discovering" a new clip. Turned out to be left + right clipping through a wall. He/she had no idea.
But if the category separation is all that happened, I'd be satisfied with that. It seems like a way to make things slightly fairer within the community.
About Xiuluowentian's NG3,I want to tell Riche: His run was played on GOTVG platform.He is a very good runner and he is a keyboard player.His run is fast and the fast climbing technique is way too fast in the game.But today I find out there is a problem for NG3 on GOTVG.Normally the fast climbing should be done as follow keep pressing up and jump back forward and then press forward then repeat the steps again and again however there is another way to do it on GOTVG and for GOTVG only.You can keep pressing forward and up at the same time then slightly press the back forward jump again and again to form the fast climbing.the more slightly you press the faster your climbing will be.I talked to the player himself and he confirmed that he used the GOTVG-ONLY way to do the fast climbing.I therefore decide to report this issue to you guys hope you can pay more attention to this problem. Thanks for reading.Um...I am not good at English.
Kokorowolf, thank you for explaining this out. Your English came through just fine. I agree that regardless of the methods used, Xiuluowentian is an amazing player, I have never believed otherwise. Which is why I don't want to see his run deflated, as it is really impressive. But aside from using the keyboard, which has advantages all on it's own, you're saying he used a specific emulator only strat to make the wall climbing even easier?
If that's the case, what is to be done? Would separating the categories (console / emulator) be enough? It seems like, while console users would have things leveled out and fair, emulator users would be forced to use the GOTVG emu with a keyboard to be on the same level. Basically just saying for emulator users, its a free for all to use whatever gives the best results.
This is a complicated issue that needs to have a solution. Further thoughts?
thanks kokorowolf :) do you know if he can hold UP+Back+B during his stage 4 boss kill? you can only shoot ninpo with up+B but if I can hold back at the same time that helps him ALOT.
I also agree with what Backslash said. Separate categories for Console/EMU Ban GOTVG emulator Allow keyboards.
