Forums  /  Ninja Gaiden III: The Ancient Ship of Doom  /  About Overswarm's NG3 JP Low% in 15:39


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  twin0mega

@color_theory I hear you, but using sub-weapons to kill things is not what Low% is really about. Low% basically means bare minimum. Using sub-weapons to kill things at all, even if its just the subweapon you start with, opens the door for too many interpretations and possible confusion.

Therefore, my vote is on Version 2.

It provides flexibility for the player but also keeps things more akin to what Low% should be.

ShuriBear and MESSI_82 like this. 
  color_theory

Then why not the happy medium between 2 and 1?

enemy and boss kills are sword only.
nothing can be picked up, and item sprites cannot be broken.
expelling of sub weapons is fine as long as it doesn't aid the run in any way. e.g. RNG manipulation or the addition ninpo makes to the countdown timer in NG1

twin0mega, MESSI_82 and Beerfullofbelly like this. 
  MESSI_82

@color_theory the expelling of ninpo rule can be applied to both versions. The interpretation of 'accidentally used' is too broad and an enemy or sprite might be destroyed.
Runs will have to be looked through and moved elsewhere if it is the case version 1 is decided upon.

(edited this cos i posted too fast)

twin0mega, Beerfullofbelly and color_theory like this. 
  kokoro

Why were many responses deleted? Where have they gone?
I agree with 0 ninpo and maybe I will try to run a NG3 Low% "0 ninpo" run.

twin0mega likes this. 
  ShuriBear

@kokoro Speedrun.com got hacked. So they used an image to restore a big part of the website, because a lot of runs and games got deleted.

twin0mega likes this. 
  Overswarm

Reposting due to deletion via backup:

I think the best solution is to create categories and rules that fit with existing runs.There has never been a pacifist or Low% run in Ninja Gaiden 3 with the proposed "old" rules -- there's no reason to cater to dead rulesets. If someone wants to run those specific rules later, they can do so and then we'll have runs to use and those categories could be discussed at that time. Discussing them prior to a run existing doesn't make much sense.

Currently we have runs for:

No pickups - Uranium Anchor
Any % (no ninpo) - Overswarm
Low % (expending ninpo is allowed, collecting non-useful pickups allowed) - Nanjimao
Pacifist (don't kill non-boss enemies) - Overswarm, though I wasn't done and didn't submit it
Pacifist + Low % (expending ninpo is allowed, collecting non-useful pickups allowed) - Gusmancini

There's no reason to fit the NG1 / NG2 rules. I mean, NG2 doesn't even follow their own rules -- everyone expends ninpo there too. The rules were made by players who aren't going to be participating in NG3 at all and the players we have aren't against the minor modifications at least -- no reason for a rules purity test that invalidates several runs already on the boards.

My suggestion would be creating the 5 categories listed above (6 counting Low % J) as miscellaneous categories. Put the appropriate runs in the appropriate categories. Rather than voting on rules, use the rules that people are already submitting times for. People not running a category shouldn't be determining rules for people that do run it.

None of the suggested categories are particularly popular -- the only ones with recent runs are mine and they still have a grand total of 1 run. I'm not against a general policy of requiring X runs for a category to be created so there aren't several one-run categories. That said I think each of the categories is useful in its own right:

No pickups - Arbitrarily difficult due to "oops, reset!". Has routing strategies based off of the 10 ninpo + windmill shuriken. I personally wouldn't run this and Uranium Anchor seemed to think no one else really would either!

Any% (no ninpo) - A "sword only" category, allows for the sword upgrade, health, 1ups, etc. I personally enjoyed this as a category when it was the Low % (J) rules, moreso than Any %. The equivalent in NG2 would allow for shadow clones, but no ninpo.

Low % - Like the above category, but with no health / 1ups / sword upgrade. Tbh, I find this category boring, but Low % is a pretty general staple across games. This is the only category that requires killing bosses with the "normal" sword.

Pacifist (don't kill non-boss enemies) - the "true pacifist" run, is not represented in the NG series. When I ran this it required routing to get the right pickups to get the right boss kills - they were basically any% boss kills.

Pacifist + Low % - Like the above, except you don't route pickups. Boss kills are Low% boss kills. This is gus' run and is arguably the most difficult.

The categories are all pretty granular and equally unpopular, so there's no clear way to choose one to be allowed over another. I think the first question to ask is "what constitutes creating a category" -- if one-run categories that are unique apply, all of the above work. If there's some sort of limitation that should be decided early on and then have categories follow those rules.

MESSI_82 likes this. 
  twin0mega

The main reason we're still discussing all of this is to figure out how flexible the Low% rules can be for NG3 specifically, since its much easier to accidentally pick up or use Ninpo.

Do we stick with very strict where resets will happen far more often, which to me seems a lot less enjoyable? Or do we cater to add a little flexibility and allow expelling of ninpo down to 0 to avoid using it on accident on bosses when slash canceling?

 
  color_theory

It's actually pretty easy not to pick up items in ng3. It is only difficult to slash cancel and not use ninpo by accident.

twin0mega likes this. 
  twin0mega

From what I've experienced and seen with many runners, NG3 JP tends to be worse than the US version for that. Many of the enemies line up perfectly with items. So as you slash to kill the enemies, you get the item drops on accident. Im sure things could be routed to avoid that. But currently, the better routing lines up perfectly in a few spots.

 
  color_theory

Maybe I found a different route then, because I'm only running JP with no pickups atm and there are only 2 items that I think I hit by accident. Are you looking at the JP any% to make that determination? I think a lot of those problems can be avoided by simply jumping over the risky enemies or pausing a few frames to get them out of the way of the item.

twin0mega likes this. 
  twin0mega

Yeah, pausing a few frames can definitely get past them. The runs I've seen are both any% and Low%. But it's not an easy game. And the main point I'm hoping people will see is, it's super easy to make mistakes in that one. So resetting happens a lot as is. I'd hate for resets to happen any more than needed.

color_theory likes this. 
  MESSI_82

@Overswarm i've only been made aware that, for neatness on this site, categories are only kept if they are popular, and some end up taking over others. e.g. Zelda II has 22+ categories. With that said i now completely see your point, and it's a legit one for sure. Legit runs of other new categories like Jellyd0ts' NG1 100% all pick-ups Pacifist run don't exist and are considered 'meme'.
What way to proceed forward is highly confusing. There are far too many variables in this regard.
Myself, personally, would like to have the old rules for Low% and Pacifist kept intact. On the other hand, if other categories become popular then it wouldn't make sense keeping them.
Maybe, just for right now the old rules can stand and we can add some space for a few new categories too.

twin0mega, Overswarm and color_theory like this. 
  Overswarm

I think the big holdup here is there is nothing that says a category is good or bad other than the number of runs and nothing that says whether a category should exist in the first place other than "it is a category that is run". If everyone posting in this thread decided to run "Ninja Gaiden 3: Sword + Windmill shuriken only" you'd get a totally new category with more runs than any others. It's how the Pacifist runs in NG1 started. The issue now is that categories are starting before there are runners.

I think there's going to be room for Low% and Pacifist runs no matter what because they're generally staples, but I think we'd need to cater to the runs that exist first and foremost. That would mean, at minimum, a Low% (expending ninpo allowed, pickups allowed) and a Pacifist+Low% category.

I don't see an issue with multiple "misc" categories, misc is for the more niche ones. If there is an issue with multiple categories, a mod needs to dictate the requirement for creating and/or keeping a category. Any% (J) was created because someone just said "hey I think I'm going to run this" and it was empty for over half a year, so I don't think anything has been really set in stone as far as "requirements".

I could go on what I'd do to determine creating categories and what is "legitimate", but I'm not a mod. We just need a statement from a mod on "what constitutes a new category".

LordMike111686, twin0mega and MESSI_82 like this. 
  Overswarm

@Backslash if you're making the call, we need to know what constitutes whether a category should be created

 
  Backslash

I don't think the answer is creating 5 different categories for what basically is the same category, with one small difference. Though if people here really want it and at least one person shows intent on running a category, under specific rules that aren't defined here, then I don't see why not.

No pickups seems like a good choice that kind of makes sense and I don't feel that UA's run really belongs in any% (Though UA did pick up a subweapon in 7-1 so it depends on how strict you'd want to be with the category rules). Also color_theory seems interested in running it if I'm not mistaken.

Regarding the rules for low% I agree with Messi's suggestion (version 2) with the addition that you should be able to expel ninpo if it doesn't kill an enemy or affect anything else. Same with pacifist.

I'll update the rules this weekend when I'm off work and if you see anything missing just make another post here or whatever.

Beerfullofbelly, MESSI_82 and twin0mega like this. 
  kokoro

Thanks Backslash and someone else. I have a question about :Non-useful items are allowed to be picked up.
What are Non-useful items? Which items?
So I uploaded 2 videos just now.
I know "忍" is allowed to pick up like this ACT 2-1.

But I'm not sure this 7-1 is allowed or not because I picked up a ninpo (I call it Shield Fire).

twin0mega likes this. 

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