NieR: Automata Forum  /  Category Discussion
  MASHMASH

So if the title of the thread is not obvious here is where we can talk more about the categories and anything pertaining to them going forward more officially.

I do not currently know much about the actual game besides rough mechanics and common knowledge but as I go through it it will be easier to set things up for sure with you guys in the community. Wanted to keep my personal experience for the game intact as much as possible, Sure you all understand and thank you for your patience.

 
  MASHMASH
(edited: )

So I know Any% will be a category for sure which will cover the first run through the game as New Game.
RTA will for sure be the preferred timing for the runs in general. I will be looking at how the IGT works to see if its similar to the original game and if so both times will be required.

Also with some knowledge of the current game Starting the run time will be much like the Demo and End similarly to the original game as it does have post credit save, If it is like What it was.

Should we continue to also sort the categories with the Difficulty sub categories?

 
  DworimDworim
(edited: )

The most popular difficulties will most likely be easy/hard/vhard, im not sure if normal has any advantages in duration over easy, hard may or may not save time due to faster boss patterns, and vhard will be the souls esque skill category where you get a "clean run", though not fastest for obvious reasons. Those ahould exist as base formats. If someone changes their difficulty ingame post start the run would be considered invalid.

As for categories, for those interested in mapping out the whole game, i see it feasible to have a c-ending category. Runs of those will probably be around 4h region.

We could also potentially have all weapons (though one requires grind) or getting specific items. Though for now i think any% and any% c ending with all difficulties are sufficient enough for setup.

EDIT: technically runs going for c-ending also would count for A-ending, but i'm pretty sure the routing would be different (activating access points, getting different items) that it would end up being slower than just focusing on that any% category

 
  MASHMASH

Yes if someone changes difficulty it would invalidate the run.
I expect allot of people from what I've seen about chatter in discord that will be more people focused on Easy and Hard currently. But yes VHard is something some are aiming at eventually as well. Normal seems to be the odd middle man category but I keep the difficulty sorting planned for them all for now unless something drastic changes about that.

A full game in one go clear is something that I don't see happening for a long while still as it would be allot of play time and routing for it and it would be simpler to start with the others and build those routes first anyways and save effort.

I know I'll be doing a bunch of notes on routing the game for all the categories and will be hopefully looking at those that are laying the game as references for those. It would be allot easier that way rather then spending 2 months just analyzing the game and watching only 1 run to build notes from over several months before you even get to do anything with them. I still have not rewritten my older nier notes yet but Should soon for new comers.

Since I've yet to really play the game is the other endings requiring you to beat the game for A first tho?

 
  DworimDworim

Yeah, to get to ending B you have to finish A. eg A -> B -> C. Once we have solid routes set on any% A we can start focusing on the full game routes (it would basically serve as the "100%" category of this game I feel, because I don't think anyone would bother doing a run of true 100% (unit data, files, etc) though you never know).

As for runs / routes you can take a look at preliminary stuff hosted here
http://aeternumfc.com/yorha-master/routes.html
There are new ideas to that route already (such as animal riding, sewers skip being non-viable etc) but i believe the core is there.

and finished runs:

2:18:50 (easy) RTA by dworim 28/2/17 |
2:14:25 (normal) RTA by あぶさん 2/3/17 |
2:50:04 (hard) RTA by xaerock 6/3/17 |

 
  MASHMASH
(edited: )

Sounds like it follows the original games set up very similarly then. I'll have a look at the vods posted and go fom there then. But looks like I'll be setting it up closely to the original game. As for how you guys timed the rta for the runs if the time started much like the demo from the last available screen in this case difficulty selection till last save then I think they are all good is what I'm thinking.

 
  zaarockzaarock
(edited: )

IGT seems to count time since difficulty selection till last save, you're right. If you mess around with settings before starting a new game it counts as IGT. You can bypass this by loading a previous save with settings after booting the game, it will remember them if you start a new game.

Got a 2:33 on hard, still really sloppy but the route is starting to take shape

 
  MASHMASH

First Category is up for Any% A , keep in mind things are subjected to change as more discussion happens over the next few weeks or more.

 
  MASHMASH
(edited: )

The next categories I want to discuss are B and C for Any%.
The trouble with these is that if we allow set up or prep'd files it gives people advantages that have more time to do this.
So I'm thinking about having a requirement to do those runs where previous Submitted run files for the ones before them are used to Start from. This does pose a bit of a disadvantage if you got under-leveled from a previous Route or bad drops etc, but It allows a more fair ground in going for them.

Basically;
To submit a B run you need to be using your fastest submitted A run.
To submit a C run you need to be using your fastest submitted B run.
^ The above would also apply to D.
So to attempt these you would need to make sure you save on a different slot to preserve those Run files for attempts.
All other rules would follow this requirement for the Main Route Runs.

Not Sure about doing E atm, I'm thinking the best focus would be on Routes with actual gameplay additions or differences.
There are a few other endings but I think if we do allow some of them later on they would be meme runs in a sense.
Example Fish%

 
  MASHMASH

Some one mentioned a possibility of people submitting bad runs on purpose to gain a better later run. But if that was the case it would be noticeable would it not being as they would not on that skill and practice level achieve a far superior later run for the advanced categories from the previous one?

 
  Alabaster_Alabaster_

I feel that there are too many ways to game the system with that setup. I mean, if a player said they wanted to submit what was, essentially, a casual play through of the game would you really say no to them? As long as it meets the requirements (timing specifications, recorded, single segment, etc.) I feel any run should be valid. Also, the idea of having to use previous best save files from each category is a bit of a hoakie solution. For one, that means you can only attempt 1 run of B and 1 run of C, since you can't go back later and redo a run because your EXP and everything else will stay the same. I'm of the opinion that there are really only 3 options (in the order I like them from most to least):
1. Single Segment Only aka if you want to submit a run for B you do A first then B. If you want to do a run for C you do A first, then B, and finally C. This is the most fair method. It is also the longest, which would turn people off from running these.
2. If Automota has a level cap we decide that runs of any ending other than A have to be on a save file that is max level cap. We also specify that you MUST discard/destroy/remove all items, chips, weapons, and money in the previous save barring the minimum that would be left money wise. This seems the easiest solution, as people can use a full save to just start from the beginning over and over again, no previous save weirdness. Also, if there is an item that stops EXP gain we could set a level everyone starts at but they must be using the specified item. I'm not as big a fan of this idea because there will have to be alot of micromanaging in the categories and it will not be as simple.
3. We make the non-A ending categories PC ONLY and make it so that anyone wanting to run them has to use a shared save file to be downloaded from the Resources page. This way we all start on fair ground and there is the least amount of micromanaging. The problems with this are that anyone without a PC cannot take part in these categories (unless you can copy and share saves on PS4) and that it will not be as simple to just play the game, as it will require you to dump that save file in your Steam folders and such.
I hope my musings help further the discussion. I have not yet started running this game but I want to and I want to see this community flourish and grow.
===Glory to Mankind===

 
  MASHMASH

Allot of what was mentioned would not work properly at least my understanding of what you said with the game.

Also you can just save over on a different slot instead of the one that was used to start from. So you could keep a base file for A finished and B finished and the leave slot 3 open and save there for runs it's a similarthing I am doing with the old one considering it follows the same parameters.

I would not allow them to use casual files if we use the mentioned as it would have to be something that was submitted as a run or at least comparable to that, if they intentionally botched the previous runs for requirements to do B or C it would be evident in the previous runs to get a better follow up run being as you'd see them be inconsistently better during that run.

Again I'm not sure on this yet,
And doing it as;
To do B: playing A and then B makes its more of a joint category and much longer.
Same with adding on C the game just became over 5 hrs just to do those as one when we are looking more at the individual route and not the combined yet as that would be more of an endurance category.

Just my imos on this and trying to be as open about it as possible we are all playing the game and should be herd atleast.

 
  Alabaster_Alabaster_

I agree that everyone should be heard, I only wanted to voice some ideas for a future solution as I am not a fan of re-using save files from previous runs. Conjecture online points to the level cap possibly being level 99, so that is out. What are your thoughts on running from a universal save file on PC?

 
  MASHMASH

I posted my thoughts on the saves regarding PC on the Discord, but to summarize it here:
I do not like the idea if it is possible because I would like to keep PC as close to Console in terms of rules if at all possible Unless there is major differences between them. Someone else would have had to make the file if thats even possible to share and it would need to be checked out from us before it would even be allowed and set the parameters for each save as a base line, such as the lvl start and what items or w.e are on it and at what points is at.

I will be willing to look at also Vanilla V1.00 runs in the future concerning older tech being patched out with the game fixes related to crashes and freezing etc. The tech that was patched was most likely accidental unless it was done because it had major game breaks on a casual play.

 
  BeardyBeardy

I mean, you say you want PC to be as close to consoles in terms of rules, but you're looking into making a v1.00 category that will actually be impossible to run if you're on PC?

 
  MASHMASH
(edited: )

As I said I'm looking into it but I have my doubts on that currently.
I'd say we should continue focusing on latest patch runs for submissions,
Older submissions will be sorted and most likely moved to hidden category if things get drastically different in patches.

 
  MASHMASH

I have added NG+ B and C/D routes to the board. (C/D could end up being split up depending on differences for the last section resulting in that decision.)
New Game Any% has also been added - This category is for Completing from fresh data Routes A, B and Either C or D back to back.
All relevant rules for the categories are listed and subject to change if necessary.

 
  Alabaster_Alabaster_

Why is New Game Any% not from A-E?

 
  MASHMASH
(edited: )

Because E does not include any difference in actual gameplay and requires you to replay last section to c/d again to get it.
It does not go straight into it on its own and therefore not included currently.

A,B and C/D all have a definitive start and end point of there own with gameplay differences where as E is just more like a outro cutscene/credit extender. Just not enough in it to merit it's inclusion.

 
  Alabaster_Alabaster_

Makes sense, especially since doing the opposite ending and then E wouldn't be that much of a time difference for players since the other ending is quick to get and E is an autoscroller.

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