Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! Forum  /  Clarification for rule against IL save states
  freebachelorfreebachelor

I'm not a fan of emulators in general, but a friend of mine bought me an NES Classic and said I should upload videos. I started doing so only to discover the speed run world.

So my question is, what is the justification for the rule banning save states for IL times? For example, does it really affect how Great Tiger or 2nd Don Flamenco fights? Or is it due to possible manipulation? I think everyone here is more tech savvy than myself, so I was curious.

Also, does the rule mean that for example, if I wanted to submit a video for Great Tiger, I would have to submit a video that takes me from Don Flamenco all the way to Great Tiger even though the submission is for Great Tiger only?

Thanks in advance!

 
  freebachelorfreebachelor

Also, for Don Flamenco 1, would I have to submit a video that shows me entering the password before the fight for the video to count?

 
  MarthSRMarthSR
(edited: )

Save states basically save the memory state of the game at any given time. Meaning that parts, or even in some game, the entirety of the RNG, will remain the same, and therefore could be manipulated in ways that wouldn't normally be available without save states.

Ergo, when you save state, you don't start on the same RNG as you would by resetting, and that could potentially lead up to unfair advantages.

While I personally don't know of any ways to manipulate the RNG from a given save state in this specific game, the risk is there, and that is more than enough to warrant a ban on save states.

 
  freebachelorfreebachelor

Let me see if I understand this correctly, you save before fighting someone, then start the fight. You're telling me that even if you save before the fight is started (meaning from the fight profile screen), there's a chance of the patterns being totally different every time. Is my understanding correct?

 
  mPapmPap

Any random event in a fight is typically determined 2 frames before said random event occurs. RNG also changes every frame and takes into account the inputs youve made in from power on. So even if you made a save state, the RNG would start the same but then begin to differ rather quickly from things happening on slightly different frames including your own inputs. The reason we dont allow savestates is because its an external tool, which is not a part of the original game.

 
  freebachelorfreebachelor

That explanation makes sense, but my question regarding the same states was regarding continuing from a certain spot. As an example, it's somewhat a pain in the ass to start the game over, input a passcode, fight 2 guys, then fight Great Tiger if you're going for the record against Great Tiger, right? I can understand the justification for not allowing an actual in-fight save state, but to not be allowed to reset and start the fight over at the intro screen before you even get to the ring doesn't make sense to me.

However, if it's simply because it wasn't part of the original game, then that's another argument. I still don't think it matters much when going for single fight records, but I do understand being old school myself wanting to keep the integrity of the original game(then again I'd argue about using frame counting which I don't do, but again separate issue, lol).

Question: If you are going for a record for a certain fighter, how does one submit it? Do I need to record starting at the password input screen in order for it to be accepted for say Great Tiger or Soda Popinski?

 
  mPapmPap
(edited: )

We are currently discussing it now in the Discord Server. I know its annoying for fights where you would have to fight several fights to get to the fight you actually want to do, but its the way things were done before things like emulators, powerpak and everdrive.

Currently there is nothing preventing from submitting just the fight in question but since this is a topic I have seen come up a few times, I am also interested in a universal stance on submission evidence.

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  freebachelorfreebachelor
(edited: )

Wait, there isn't anything preventing from submitting just the fight in question? Am I misinterpreting the rule? That's literally why I'm asking for clarification, lol. I never considered speed running until I saw that I could probably get myself on some of the leaderboards. Are you saying I can submit this video for consideration?

 
  buffalaxbuffalax

This is another argument here. Anything you can not do with the original hardware and the original cart is banned. you can't do save states on the NES original hardware with a copy of Punch Out.

 
  freebachelorfreebachelor

So how does the video submission work? I looked at a current submission from an NES Classic and it starts exactly at the same time as the video I posted above. How have the admins verified that this wasn't done with a save state as opposed to starting from Don Flamenco with a password?

 
  mPapmPap
(edited: )

We are currently working this ruling out. We think there will be a certain cut off time where the extra evidence is needed but currently just the fight in question is fine for submission. Basically, if you say you didnt use save states, we believe you.

That video of Great Tiger would be fine for submission under the current verificaton methods (as far as I know, Im not a mod)

 
  freebachelorfreebachelor

Thanks! Yeah, I don't use IL save states(my buddy hates when I don't use them on Zelda 2, lol). A friend of mine said I should start uploading vids of me playing some of the old school games then I discovered that people are actually keeping track of times. I figured I'd get credit for some of my work, lol. I seriously doubt I'd ever get to the point of the WR holders, but to at least make the leaderboard is pretty cool.