Forums  /  Mega Man X series  /  Mega Man X6  /  Leaderboard Discussion (Locked)
  orsaorsa

this leaderboard is a shitshow right now.

here's my opinion, and i think it's pretty reasonable:

remove ps2 emulator times. there's absolutely no reason that these should be staying on the leaderboards when they're at least 30 seconds faster than XC GC, let alone PS2.

separate xc with ps1. make all versions of xc a miscellaneous category, since xc has the advantage on loads (and lag, most of the time, although i will admit this is a bit weird with turtloid rain lag. it would be nice if we could separate it further, but i don't think it's realistic).

for ps1 i would standardize on sds and normal, due to inconsistent loading times and the majority of ps1 runs being on normal. i have no opinion on what to do with XC, and that should be left up to the people who actually run on XC (cyber, 8bit, etc).

timing out loads fails to take into account differences in version (ps2 vs gcn xc with shark player) and lag (ps1 vs xc, again, most of the time).

 
  Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531

why would you standardize the least optimized and least popular version? If XC and PS1 are separated, PS1 should be misc.

 
  Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531

why is normal standard because its default, but you're allowed to use rapid fire, auto charge, and change controls?

PeterAfroPeterAfro and SubStyleeSubStylee like this. 
  Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531

yeah go ahead and ban my 44:17 because its relevant lol

 
  zewingzewing

You need to actually post good replies cyberdemon with proof and whatnot because atm you are doing nothing but clogging up this thread. PSX version of X6 is actually the most popular and you could argue the PSX record is actually the most optimized

 
  Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531

As far as all stages goes (the most optimized category) my in game time is faster than the fastest PS1 run. Thus making it more optimized. As far as runners go:
XC: 8bit, cirno, me, zewing, kryptoid, substylee, qttsix, souless, crak
PS1: fuji, choco, plum, orsa

I'm not clogging anything, I'm directly responding to Luiz.

 
  IzraillIzraill

Originally posted by LuizMiguel and use igt... as I always say
    IGT in X6 is inaccurate and differs from RTA in strats, since it seems some slow RTA strats may result a faster in-game time. Also, deaths seem to work in an odd way with the in-game timer. So that runs were comparable with in-game time, and to prevent using slow RTA strats we would have to not only require single-segment runs, but also that the runs have no deaths in them, and since death abuse can be necessary (in 100% for example) it makes it just not viable.

    In-game time is just not an option in X6.

Originally posted by Cyberdemon531As far as runners go:
XC: 8bit, cirno, me, zewing, kryptoid, substylee, qttsix, souless, crak
PS1: fuji, choco, plum, orsa
    And how many of those runners are active right now? When was the last time kryptoid, cirno, qttsix, souless or crak have been actively doing x6 attempts? Even chocochu is actively doing X6 attempts, and don't include zewing on your side who is in for splitting versions too.

 
  Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531

Active runners would be:
XC: 8bit, myself, substylee, crak
PS1: Choco, plum

XC is more popular, and at worst even in popularity with PS1. This is a speed running website, so the fastest version should take priority.
As far as timing goes my opinion is:
No loads RTA > IGT > RTA > separating everything into 18 categories so everyone can have a world record

 
  orsaorsa

because the only reason we're separating categories is to give people records.

also i'm running x6 ps1 pretty actively, just not on stream. it's about 50/50.

 
  Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531

If you wanted maximum competition, you would either time out loads or use in game time.

 
  IzraillIzraill

    Luiz, are you saying we somehow enforce Real Time strats, but rank by In-game time? How would that even work?

 
  Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531

It would be arbitrary, but it certainly beats having 18 categories.

 
  zewingzewing

[quote ="orsa"]
this leaderboard is a shitshow right now.

here's my opinion, and i think it's pretty reasonable:

remove ps2 emulator times. there's absolutely no reason that these should be staying on the leaderboards when they're at least 30 seconds faster than XC GC, let alone PS2.

separate xc with ps1. make all versions of xc a miscellaneous category, since xc has the advantage on loads (and lag, most of the time, although i will admit this is a bit weird with turtloid rain lag. it would be nice if we could separate it further, but i don't think it's realistic).

for ps1 i would standardize on sds and normal, due to inconsistent loading times and the majority of ps1 runs being on normal. i have no opinion on what to do with XC, and that should be left up to the people who actually run on XC (cyber, 8bit, etc).

timing out loads fails to take into account differences in version (ps2 vs gcn xc with shark player) and lag (ps1 vs xc, again, most of the time).

END QUOTE

Standardizing PSX isn't a bad thing since I don't intend on running that version but for XC, I'd see nothing wrong with putting all difficulties on the same leaderboard, so in essence we'd trim the categories lists from 18 (yikes) to only 6 . Easy fix, everyone is satisfied, just would need to know what exactly is agreed upon by PSX community as "Standardized"

 
  Kollin7Kollin7

>2015
>Having SDS be the standard for PS1 games

PeterAfroPeterAfro likes this. 
  zewingzewing

So I may as well say this for SDS for PSX standardization since I have experience using it, unlike the majority of people in this thread.

I have used a SCPH-70000 model PS2 when I ran Mega Man X6 half a year ago and I used Fast Disk Speed as my Disk Speed. However, on 2 of my 52 attempts, I got an infinite loading softlock on 2 different loading screens (the load screen after intro boss and infinity mijinion). I can only assume SCPH-9000x models have this happen more frequently. Unsure about SCPH-3000x models though.

So basically FDS causes 3 distinct kinds of loading at any load screen:

1. Faster loading than SDS
2. Very slow loading, probably slower than Standard Disk Speed
3. Infinite loading soft lock.

Making SDS the standard eliminates this soft lock and inconsistent loading and makes all runs easier to compare as well.

In addition, to comment on Luiz's proposal to time w/ RTA but rank by IGT, this is not possible at all. If times are ranked by IGT, you must expect the possibility that runners will run with whatever kinds of strats will get them the better IGT ranking, even if those strats look like "slower RTA strats."

In addition, we don't know everything about how the IGT even works in mega man x games, so until that time comes IGT will just be an arbitrary time with "some" meaning.

 
  Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531

Reminder that FDS is irrelevant because X Collection has faster and consistent load times, and that removing load times all together would make them even more irrelevant.

And I hate to say it, but I agree with Luiz on In game time. If it stops this board from turning into a garbage bin with 18 categories, then it should be done.

 
  IzraillIzraill

    So, discussing with Zewing privately, we arrived to an idea to prevent clutter from many categories when separating difficulties and versions, as well as to give more recognition to XC. There will be 6 main (non-misc) categories: PS1 Any% (Normal), PS1 All Stages (Normal), PS1 100% (Normal), XC Any% (easy), XC All Stages (Easy), and and XC 100% (Normal). Since these seem to be the most "competitive" ones. The rest of the 18 or so categories would be sent to misc, since they are technically an option but don't matter.

    And please stop suggesting IGT, it's not a valid option.

 
  Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531

So you make a thread in an attempt to allow the "community" to have a group decision, and go ahead and discuss it privately instead. Neat.

Creating 6 categories out of 3 is still obscene, and in principal as bad as having 18 (which you apparently still want in misc, rather than actual fun misc cats like ultimate armor, unarmored, etc) Also, while we're separating categories, can you split all PS1 categories up and have Slow mode categories too? It's just as valid as normal mode runs. Also, what about the PC Version which has an in-game speed up option? Can you make 9 categories for PC as well?

Also, how is in game time "not a valid option"? It's one of the two remaining possibilities in keeping this leaderboard good, rather than having a free world record zone.

 
  orsaorsa

i don't even know why i'm replying to this.

Originally posted by "Cyberdemon531" Creating 6 categories out of 3 is still obscene, and in principal as bad as having 18 (which you apparently still want in misc, rather than actual fun misc cats like ultimate armor, unarmored, etc)

My suggestion was 3 psx categories as the default (any%, all stages, 100%, all standardized on normal), and then three misc xc categories (any%, all stages, 100%, not sorted by difficulty or version or whatever, minus ps2 emu). nobody except bruno runs ps1 easy, and i don't think anyone (except chocochu's any% run) plays xtreme ps1. you could also throw in misc categories (ua, unarmored) if you really want to, i don't really care.

igt isn't really a good option because nobody's really tested how it works, and it behaves oddly around deaths and such. it also promotes using in-game time strats, whether intentionally or not, which is something i personally (and i think zewing and izraill too) would like to avoid.

i'm not even going to comment on the rest of this shitpost, except this part

Originally posted by "cyberdemon531It's one of the two remaining possibilities in keeping this leaderboard good, rather than having a free world record zone.

You seem to be under the impression, along with several other runners, that the reason we are attempting to separate versions is simply to give everyone a world record. I'm not really sure if you're being intentionally dense with this, but we're separating different versions because they're different enough. "Different enough" is an entirely arbitrary term, but nearly every speedrunning community on the planet at least agrees that different difficulty = different category, full stop. versions are a little bit less cut and choose, but i think that being consistent with the rest of the mmx community, who have all agreed that MMXC is "different enough" with respect to lag and loads that it should be separated; not because i want a free world record, but because different games need to be listed separately.