Mega Man X4 Forum  /  Mega Man X4 Moderation/Category Discussion
  kirkqkirkq

Mega Man X4 Moderation/Category Discussion

Comparing the two of these as was brought up by Orsa:
http://www.speedrun.com/mmx4
http://jokaah.com/mmrta/index.php?game=15

Noted differences:
- Time conversions
- Is timing start and stop different as well?
- Tracks 3 Ultimate Armor categories
- Tracks low% Zero

I need to know how you would propose changing these things (and anything else) over the short term (perhaps with consideration to future site features if worth noting.)

I've never played X4, nor do I know much about it in particular, but I've played X1-3

The following comment were copied from the moderation request thread: http://www.speedrun.com/The_Site/thread/63nr7/16

Originally posted by "Orsa"
Out of the two current mods, one does not even play the game, and the other has little to no involvement in the community. Both also have very different views on rules and categories from the majority of the community. I've talked to several other prominent community members, and we would be much happier with a leaderboard that more closely reflects the rules and categories listed on mmrta.

From observations of runs listed, both appear to play the game. I inquired about different rules/categories above. I get the claim "I've talked to several other prominent community members" quite often, but I'll give you some benefit of the doubt here.

Originally posted by "MopeyJoe"
The two current mods go out of their way to have differing view points as the rest of the community and it makes the leaderboards a bad representation of the community. Orsa and I are active runners of X4 (myself more-so than Orsa) so it would be much better if we were to have super mod status of the X4 leaderboard and the two current mods removed.

- Any particular instances of "going out of their way." ? There's a major difference between having a different opinion and intentionally having a different opinion.
- "It makes the leaderboards a bad representation of the community." - It just looks like a differently organized data set to me. "It's suboptimal" or "It's a bad way to lay out the data" are fair arguments, but unless it's intentionally negligent for some reason I haven't been informed of, from my perspective I don't know that I'd describe it as a "bad representation of the community".

Originally posted by "Orsa"
this is probably something that should be handled on a case-by-case basis, but i can offer my opinion for the two games i help to moderate (mm8 and mmx5). we try to keep the boards as close as possible to what is listed on jokaah, as we feel that the rules and categories listed on jokaah accurately reflect the viewpoints of the community. we also link to the other site directly, in case our leaderboard becomes inaccurate or out-of-date.

mmx4 should probably function similarly to 8 and x5, as the vast majority of the community agrees on the rules and categories listed on mmrta.

Indeed we have been handling most Mega Man games on a case by case basis because there seems to be a fair amount of dissent, especially in the X series.

I'm not trying to take sides, I'm just asking for information. Any additional information will help us make a more informed decision.

- Kirkq

 
  [user deleted]

thanks for the extra consideration, and i apologize for being intentionally brief (mostly due to not wanting to start drama unless absolutely required).

the major issue here is that the speedrun.com boards track runs done on the PS2/Gamecube port (Mega Man X Collection) as comparable to runs done on the original versions (ps1/pc/ps1 emulator). The major of the community has agreed to separate XC from the original versions due to differences in lag, loading, and even version exclusive glitches. more information on this topic can be found here: http://jokaah.com/mmrta/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160 , but i have included some posts below that capture the essence of most runners' opinions:

Originally posted by "joka" X4
Main releases: PS1, Sega Saturn, PC
While there isn’t any perfectly accurate emulators for the main versions, the differences can (and will) be timed and taken into account, so runs can be compared.
XC has the advantage in lag and loading times and should be separated.

Originally posted by "bjw"
I like consolidated leaderboards, but I need to draw the line when differences only serve to muddy them. A leaderboard should (a) promote competition without segregating too much via too many categories, and (b) provide a quick and convenient reference to times and players.

the main idea is that the "original" versions (that is, pc psx and psx emu) are "close" and "accurate" enough in lag, loads, and gameplay that we can compare them simply by timing out loads. x collection is "different enough" that most of us agree that it should be separated.

Originally posted by "kirkq"
From observations of runs listed, both appear to play the game.

This is technically true; Cyberdemon does have a time in X4, but he himself admits that he doesn't care about the game and has no intention of playing it in the near future. He even admits that peter modded him as a joke (https://twitter.com/Cyberdemon531/status/629354592304807936).

Originally posted by "kirkq"
It just looks like a differently organized data set to me. "It's suboptimal" or "It's a bad way to lay out the data" are fair arguments, but unless it's intentionally negligent for some reason I haven't been informed of, from my perspective I don't know that I'd describe it as a "bad representation of the community".

I don't think I could argue that it's done intentionally, but I would say that putting every run next to each other and forcing the average viewer to filter out versions (like XC) puts an unfair burden on the visitor who simply wants to know what the best time is. Anyone who isn't already familiar with X4 isn't going to know that XC and PSX are very very different (as evident by this topic), and would simply assume that the faster time is better, which adds unnecessary obfuscation.

the only other complaint i would have here is that the boards track "Ultimate Armor" categories (which require inputting a code on the main menu) as a "major category," while leaving low% as a secondary category.

timing start and stop should be the same on both boards, but the srcom mods haven't explicitly defined any rules. at any rate, there are two timing methods in x4 - the primary method begins on character select and ends on last movement input, and the jrta method begins on character select and ends on final text skip input (I believe, someone should correct me if i'm wrong here). Most runners use the former, and the former should be the standard imo.

i apologize if this seemed a bit erratic in layout; i tried to get all of my thoughts down as quickly and as succinctly as possible. let me know if you need any other information, i'd be happy to help.

LuizMiguelLuizMiguel likes this. 
  Hetfield90Hetfield90

Hi, I don't use this site for mega man series games, but since Orsa brought this to my attention I will give my two cents.

I am currently a Mega Man X4 mod on the mmrta leaderboards, the leaderboards which the majority of Mega Man X community members use, and helped to establish the system we set in place there for comparing times of this game.

While some communities play on the fastest version of a game and others play on the original version, it generally comes down the preference of the majority of members, most prominent members, or oldest members of that community. In the case of the Mega Man X series, the vast majority of members prefer to not play on the fastest version(Mega Man X Collection) for a number of reasons:

1. X collection has several glitches and inconsistent load times that are not present in the original versions
2. PS2 and Gamecube emulators have terrible emulation, high system requirements, and high input delay
3. X Collection itself has no lag emulation and no load times in places where they are used to buffer inputs, changing a number of strategies throughout the runs

Because of this, we have established the fastest language of the original versions of each game as the "standard" version(Japanese for X1,2,3,5,6 and English for X4), and converted faster/slower versions to this standard if a static conversion was applicable and separated faster versions if no such conversion could be made. X Collection was separated for all 6 games because its inconsistent load times, unique glitches, and lack of lag emulation made static conversion impossible for all games.

Cyberdemon and Peterafro champion the idea that all versions should be conglomerated, essentially forcing anyone seeking to attain a competitive leaderboard time to play on X Collection. While this is how some communities categorize their games, these two are in a small minority in the Mega Man X community and are a bad representation of the of the majority of the community's ideals, where we go to great lengths to enable and encourage fair competition on as many game versions as possible.

Because of this, I also believe that Cyberdemon and Peterafro should be demodded, and that MopeyJoe and Orsa, who are much more active X4 runners and whose ideals more closely reflect the majority of the Mega Man X community, should be modded in their place.

LuizMiguelLuizMiguel likes this. 
  MottelyMottely

I am not as active as I once was with X4 but I will be coming back to it soon, and I wholeheartedly agree that the two current moderators should be removed and replaced by MopeyJoe and Orsa. They are both active and dedicated to this game, and have very reasonable and agreeable approaches to the way things should be handled with this game.

LuizMiguelLuizMiguel likes this. 
  PeterAfroPeterAfro

First off, what Luiz said is completly wrong, I did those runs because I wanted to. Second of all, I added an option to sort out if you want the leaderboards to show X collection runs or not after Moopeyjoe asked me to seperate them, he then said that it was fine..

 
  IzraillIzraill

    I have to drop my point of view here just in case it may help take the right choice, which, I'll say now, is to give mod to orsa and mopeyjoe (and I would suggest hetfield and Luiz too) and take it away from peter and cyber (seriously peter, why cyber? he doesn't care for any megaman game that's not X6).

    Each game community may decide to work differently from others in its series, or from mmrta, such as X6 or X7 --the former unifying versions and the latter allowing an unofficial patch-- but I am sure that X4 doesn't. Peter may have been in the right when he got the X7 leaderboard, but he definitely isn't here in X4. Even if the situation may seem similar, there's a big difference: Peter did represent the X7 community well, but he does not represent X4 at all, which can be seen clearly now that a good amount of recognized and active X4 runners are speaking up.

 
  Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531

I'd like to say I don't care about this game, and have completely different opinions from Orsa and Mopey, but I understand their points of view. They are prominent members of the community, so they deserve the right of way when making the rules of the leaderboard. This X4 board on Speedrun.com was made during the point of time when anyone could make a board, and that's why peter did. He then asked on twitter who wanted to be mod and he modded me and poopdeck (who he unmodded later, because poopdeck changed the board to the way it was on the MMRTA site), but I never did anything because I know the community only cared about the MMRTA site. I would say that Luiz_Miguel only offers a toxic interpretation of what Orsa, Hetfield, and Mopey are trying to say, so it's probably safe to ignore what he is saying. I'll go ahead and unmod myself here now rather than wait until later.
Also, I believe that each and every individual X game (and mega man in general) should be personally moderated by each community themselves, rather than as a whole. Remember the Resident Evil leaderboards when Carcinogen took over all the games? Let's not have that again. Each game being moderated by each community is the best way to go, so I think Orsa and Mopey should take over.

EDIT: Ok, I don't know how to unmod myself, so I won't do that right now.

DelnDeln likes this. 
  kirkqkirkq

This seems one sided, so I'm going to turn it over to orsa and MopeyJoe. They can add others if they want.

There's a lot of desire for features in the future including time conversion and better ways of integrating runs in a single table maintaining modularity while still denoting radical time measurement differences. I don't foresee major updates on this in the short term though.

One side note: If regular moderators cannot unmod themselves, this might indicate a small bug, as that is an intended ability.

 
  [user deleted]

Thanks for taking the time to look over this.

Hijacking the topic quickly to say that everything should up to date now; if anyone has any problems/feedback go ahead and message one of us or make a new thread in the forums.

 
  PeterAfroPeterAfro

this discussion is over

Cyberdemon531Cyberdemon531 likes this. 
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