Forums  /  Super Mario  /  New Category Request (No Glitching)
  CujoIHSVCujoIHSV

Good news! I found a leaderboard on another website, called Twin Galaxies, whose rules seem to be in line with what you are requesting. You should check it out, I'm sure you'd fit in perfectly.

http://www.twingalaxies.com/game_detail.php?gameid=413&platformid=23

mrcab55mrcab55 and roopert83roopert83 like this. 
  JhugomegaJhugomega

Thanks for sharing Cujo, although a smaller community and has a much lower amount of submissions, at least its in line with my playstyle, and hopefully an additional category will catch on to this one too eventually.

 
  TompaTompa

"Anywhere from 20-30 seconds can be cut from your run by using these wall gitches"
As clearly explained: Going through the walls like in Bowser's Castle is NOT A GLITCH in any way or direction. That method of scrolling through walls can be done multiple times in standard gameplay, a programmed way of not getting stuck in walls.

Take this example in 1-3:
There are lots of these examples where you can slide under blocks, but you get stuck, so the game pushes you to the right so that you get out. This is the same exact thing as in Bowser's Castle. It makes absolutely no sense why you shouldn't be allowed to do this here as well. It's like saying "You may not jump on this goomba but you may jump on that goomba".

TwinGalaxies is known for having very arbitary and weird rulesets. They randomly ban and allow things as they pleased, with no consistent logic to it. It's far obsolete when it comes to speedrunning and no serious runner cares for the site anymore. So you will not really find any competition in that regard.

 
  JhugomegaJhugomega

Just because its been used in all current categories where is is clearly allowed, does not mean Its not exploiting a game mechanic. Its a game mechanic to prevent Mario from getting stuck, but it is being exploited to skip sections of levels. An exploit is an exploit. It is allowed, I'm not saying its not. I was asking for new category where it could be excluded.

 
  LivLiv

Not all exploits are glitches though.

They've literally just explained why a lot of the things you brought up are, in fact, not glitches. Do you have your fingers in your ears or something?

 
  TompaTompa

In my example, it skipped the upper area of that section. You were clearly "meant to" go above the blocks rather than under... Everything you do in a game is exploiting the mechanics. You exploit the jump ability to jump over enemies and holes, you exploit the P-meter to be able to run through the levels, you exploit that Bowser can be killed by fireballs, you exploit that you can jump "into" enemies and still jump on them to get an upward boost, you exploit that the game has non-perfect hitbox detection, you exploit this and that...

You can't make a new category for every small detail that people don't happen to like, it has to be based on logic and common sense. And as said: Nintendo themselves are supporting this, they want people to use it, they maybe even designed that part of Bowser's Castle for that specific reason so that it could be possible.

It is not a glitch, it's not more of an exploit than anything else in the game, it's nothing that should be banned under a "Glitchless" ruleset and we will never so-called "catch on" to add it as a category. Twin Galaxies are the ones that should catch on to the speedrunning scene in general, but they decided to kept their garbage, refusing to change and decided to stay in the past. We will not.

 
  KiruaKirua

Jhugomega, I have a last question for you if you don't mind:

Most people use two zips in BC (the one near the door that you tried in your guide, and the 1-up zip). Both of those zips save around 7s combined compared to not doing them. The route I use in my PB saves an extra 3.5s approximately.

My question is: considering there's no other wallzip in the run, where are the 20 to 30s you keep talking about? I gave you the time difference, and as I mentioned with your ruleset, you can save more than 50s compared to your PB (and not 15-20 like you said in a previous message).

I understand your approach and I'm not saying that the time difference being higher or lower will change how you want to play the game. I'm just confused about why you keep making up what the difference is when I gave you accurate data. Do you believe I'm lying, do you believe I don't know what I'm talking about? I'm quite confused here.

 
  roopert83roopert83

From the previous comments, I don't know that there's a lot I can add to this discussion. I will be upfront about how I perceive this though.

To me, it seems like you're using the no cheating, glitches, etc. as an excuse to not push yourself to learn the strats needed to be competitive at a higher level. If you wanna run and submit glitchless runs, that's perfectly fine, but if you want to be a top tier runner, you need to learn the strats. You may not like them, you may think it's stupid, but that's how it works. I sense a high level of unwarranted entitlement to ask the community to cater to ONE person. I don't see other people asking for what you're asking for.

Take a sport. Any sport. Do you see a single player pleading to the league to change the rules of the game so that it suits his interests? I can't (or don't like to) hit a home run in baseball, so let's change the rules to ban home runs. That's cheating. It's OP. Like come on, lol.

 
  AweglibAweglib

"A smaller community and has a much lower amount of submissions" Why does that matter? We've given you a place where people agree with you on how the game "should be played", but you're downplaying them because there aren't as many of them? Seems like you're more concerned with recognition from a larger crowd than actually finding a group of people who enjoy the game in the same way you do.

We're not interested in adding a "glitchless" category. We enjoy the game in our way, and you are free to enjoy it in your own way. We can talk in circles forever about "cheats", "glitches", "exploits", "whatever word you wanna use next after we prove you wrong", but at the end of the day, we're not going to see eye to eye on this. If you want recognition from anybody, go to TG, I'm sure they'll welcome your views with open arms. We have no desire for it here.

Lawso42Lawso42 and mrcab55mrcab55 like this. 
  Lawso42Lawso42

So, I'll try one more attempt at yelling at this brick wall, using my own personal experience with another community.

I also run Pokemon Red, unfortunately, I have no way of running it other than emulator. Their rules say that emulator runs have to have the entire emulator window shown, I think that looks super tacky and I dislike it, so I don't do it. That means I can't submit my times to their leaderboards, but it also means that I get to have more fun and my stream looks better because of it. Now you don't see me starting threads on their boards bitching that they should make things just for me, I just play the video game the way I want to, and I don't submit my times to a leaderboard, and I go about my life.

That is what we are suggesting you do.

Also, like Kirua, I'm curious about where you are getting 30+ seconds, because if you found a new clip that saves 20+ seconds, I'm sure we would all love to see it.

 
  iateyoursenpaiiateyoursenpai

Hi!
My name is Trevor I'm 13 years old and my favorite things in the whole world are super mario bros. 3 and anime! I like doing "no wrong way" runs because its just like how me and my older brother used to play before he had to go away.

Today I achieved a new no wrong way record of 11:44! I know its not as prestigious as no wrong warp but I think it should be it's own thing because glitches are wrong sometimes! I was so scared when I done the run and I think even thouhg it has a hand its still something to be proud of. My cousin and I ate a hot pocket to celebrate just like the pros !

Luvbaseball58Luvbaseball58, ZecksZecks and 2 others like this. 
  JhugomegaJhugomega

I'll start off by saying congrats on your record iateyoursenpai.

Most posts I've been responding to are arguing the classification of wall glitching. I have said multiple times they are allowed and that's how it is. They are an exploit on failsafe game mechanics. Classify them any way you like, they are an exploit. Exploits are currently allowed in all categories, don't worry so much about the terminology. Nobody is trying to remove them from the current categories, so you're free to keep using them.
The 20-30 seconds gain is an estimation based on the amount of area skipped.
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s631/megamr/bowsers%20castle2_zpsptwewblr.png~original
There are 4 skips, most often 1&2 together, 4 on its own, and 3 is rarely used. The exact duration of time saved by using section skips is not the issue here, although you are more than welcome to measure the exact times for your own research. The issue is that these skips save you time at all. Which means my running strategies (no glitching or exploits) puts me at a loss of time disadvantage before the run is even started. Just like my previous no wrong way strats in an Any% category example.
You may argue minimal differences in time gained through wall clipping, but the issue is not the exact amount of time gained, but the issue is that when comparing the two methods, a time advantage is gained at all. The best example is Any% vs No Wrong Way is a 7m40s time gap between using and not using certain glitches. The exact amount of time isn't the issue, the issue is that currently, exploit runs give the players an advantage over no exploit runs.
My argument has been that players like myself that don't enjoy using exploits, have no categories to accommodate them. Which is why I have been requesting a new category for such (See the thread title).
Without having a category the better matches this playstyle, it makes it very difficult to accurately measure my runs times to other speedrunners times due to the time gap between using and not using exploits.
Kirua, your 1st place in No Wrong Way, would not even make it onto the leaderboard of the Any% category, no matter how perfect you could run your levels and trim time elsewhere, which is exactly my main argument. Every current category caters only to those who use exploits and glitching. I am really hoping one day to have at least one category where the game is run exploit free, just like No Wrong Way was added to produce more satisfying playthroughs that were more enjoyable to watch.

Lawso42, if you currently use software outside of the rule specs of the category, you are welcome to make a category request as well. This thread is a request afterall, not a demand. Yes I am making a request, because my runs do not match the current categories available and I do enjoy participating and learning from this community. I could not learn so much about speedrunning on my own after all.

 
  TompaTompa

Again, the wallclip is not an exploit, stop being dense. My 1-3 clip is a basic situation in the game, occuring many times, can happen any player on their first playthrough and, as mentioned, is something you are REQUIRED to do.

Kirua could submit his No Wrong Warp record to Any%, any run can be submitted to Any%, it's just that if you don't go for the fastest strats, it will not be very high up on the leaderboard. He could submit his 100% record there as well. "Any%" is just to beat the game in any way you want, you may use every or no strategies. If you want to play the game in a certain way, then do so, no one is stopping you. If I don't want to go for early P-speed in a level just because I don't like the strategy, I may do so. If I don't want to try to kill Bowser in the fastest way possible, I may do so. If I don't want to stop and grab extra points or a 1up, I may do so. All these variations of playing does not need their own leaderboard however.

There are times when "Glitchless" categories are good for the game. Ocarina of Time is such example, even though they can be quite hard to define. But they make the run very different, adding in many strategies that are still challenging to do and produces a nice result. Then there is the Any% category for Super Mario Bros., as an example. It uses very few glitches that don't make the run that much faster, they also purely makes the run more difficult to do. Not using them will not add any skill and it will be too similar as the standard any%. Therefore a "Glitchless" category is meaningless and will never have its own leaderboard, no matter what someone's opinion is on the matter.

Glitches/exploits have been a big part of speedrunning since speedrunning became a thing, and it will not change.

 
  JhugomegaJhugomega

The wall clip is exploiting a failsafe. It is an exploit nonetheless. Is it allowed? Yes. I have never said it wasn't. Glitches and exploits will always be a part of speedruning, of coarse! I've stated it already I've not denied this, in fact I've stated every current category caters to them. I have said this many times already.
Wall clipping is an exploit, deal with it. It means nothing other than terminology, as they are allowed in every current category.
Maybe this category idea will be revisited as a possibility when someone ruins the leaderboards of Any% and No Wrong Way when they glitch the game out and beat it in World 1-1. 😛

 
  JhugomegaJhugomega

Again, the time listed is an estimation, not an actual measurement. Measure the exact time if you like, the exact amount of time saved is not the issue. Yes, I listed above already 1&2 are used together, 4 on its own and that 3 is rarely used. The exact time isn't the problem, the problem is that there is a difference in time existing making it difficult to accurately compare run times in the current format. The extra time advantage in itself is the problem here. No exploit strategy does not currently match any current categories. That is the issue.

 
  LivLiv

Why is the argument over "exploits" even been had, though? The original grounds were "Glitches", right? None of the things mentioned are glitches -- they're programmed game mechanics even Nintendo themselves knew about and willingly encouraged players to use in their playthroughs.

There are intended game mechanics in almost ALL known games that players can use to gain an advantage. This isn't glitching or cheating, in SMB3's case it's using your knowledge of the game and how Nintendo programmed it to gain an edge. Nothing done is unintentional.

What is really going down here, is you're saying your opinion on choosing not to use some intended game mechanics to gain an edge in your run is worthy of its own category. That makes zero sense. No different than me saying I hate P-Speed, so can I have a no P-Speed category.

 
  AftermathrarAftermathrar

Jhugomega, comparing your run against Kirua's, it's easy to measure the time difference, just sync the videos at the start of each level or where you meet up after avoiding the tricks. He's faster than you on every level by seconds. You bump into tons of things, don't manage P-speed well, and look scared to make every jump onto a platform.

No one's going to congratulate you on your route because it's so sloppy currently. There's not going to be another category where 95% of the game is the same, but you could at least make the run with your rules not look like it was a first attempt.

 
  JhugomegaJhugomega

What you want to officially classify wall clipping as is up to you, but it still remains an exploited game failsafe mechanic intended to stop you from getting stuck, not to skip levels. Hence the term exploit as it is being exploited. No need to continue arguing this point. Its an allowable exploit.
The reason its in my thread is due to the fact that I was requesting a category where such glitches and exploits as wall clipping and wall jumping as well as the wrong way warp were all excluded. Not from the current categories, but a new one.
Yes, my run was very sloppy, thank you for now trying to insult me for having an opinion Aftermathar. The point of this thread is that whatever time it ended at, its at a time disadvantage to some (obviously not all) of the other shorter times, because I lose time by not clipping through walls. Maybe instead of current 42nd place, it may have been 37th for instance. Even if the difference is small, the fact that there is a difference at all is the point here.
I don't claim to be faster than Kirua, he is an extremely talented speedrunner and his times will most likely always be faster than my own. I have never claimed that I'm faster than anyone here. I'm saying that the current No Wrong Way doesn't accurately measure the time of my runs. I'm in a category that doesn't fit. I have no doubt that if the category were made, Kirua or mikeflowerpower would most likely hold the record there as well. I said before, I may not even make the top 10, but at least the rankings would be more comparable.

 
  JhugomegaJhugomega

To wrap up this thread and close any disagreements made, whatever you wish to classify wall jumps and clips as, does not change the fact that I am requesting a category that excludes them.
If the moderators choose not to add the category based on a change of only minimal differences, that is their discretion as are with any other category suggestions and requests.
I am entitled to have my own opinion, so I do not appreciate any insults being made towards me.
Thank you Cujo and Kirua for your time and consideration.

 
  TompaTompa

Well, you could call it an exploit, but it's just, as mentioned, as much exploiting as any other of the game mechanics: P-speed, item usage, jumping etc.

Anyway. Sorry for sounding a bit harsh in general. Feel free to enjoy the game in any manner you prefer =).