Forums  /  Super Mario  /  New Category Request (No Glitching)
  JhugomegaJhugomega

I've seen a lot of SMB3 speedruns being run, where wall glitching and using the wrong way warp have been used to achieve records, however I don't like using glitches in my runs to make records, hence my current 3 way tie for 42nd place, so I am hoping to encourage the community to make two new categories for a number of games.

Any%(No Glitching)
100%(No Glitching)
I believe these records will have more merit for worldwide recognition and make speedrunning more achievable by newer members of the community as well as encourage more gamers to take part in speedrunning in general.

 
  CujoIHSVCujoIHSV

Hypothetically, if we were to add "No Glitching" categories to SMB3, we would need to define very specifically what is or is not a glitch. As it stands, besides the wrong warp, glitches in this speedrun by the most liberal definition really only include zips and wall jumps, and both of those are debatable.

Zips are a natural consequence of how the game handles Mario getting stuck, for example, while un-ducking under a block. The game always pushes Mario to the right when his head is inside of something. Should we ban runs where a runner inadvertently un-ducks while ducking through a one-tile gap? If not, how do we differentiate between intentional and unintentional un-ducking? If we should ban zipping in certain locations, what's the justification for saying you can let the game zip you out of a wall here but not there? Considering the zip using the 1-up block in Bowser's Castle is mentioned specifically in Nintendo's official strategy guide, can you say that something intentionally left in the game with purpose is a glitch per se? In any case, the effect that zips have on the speedrun are minimal, and a separate category disallowing them would result in having two near-identical speedruns with only one miniscule difference between them. To what end? So that a handful of runners can feel good about not "cheating" according to an arbitrary rule that the vast majority of the runners find pointless?

More to the point, making these official categories is not something you will accomplish on your own; you'll need to convince the community at-large. Your best bet is to codify a set of very specific rules governing what is and isn't allowed, continue to run your category to build recognition of it, and convince other runners to do the same until it becomes ubiquitous over an extended period of time. I can tell you right now that that last point will likely be your undoing, as there are plenty of other, more unique runs with lots of supporters that are also left off of the main leaderboards. I'm not trying to discourage you--you have my full support in doing whatever makes you happy--I just want to make sure that you don't half-ass something you feel strongly about.

 
  JhugomegaJhugomega

Any% and 100% runs will always have glitched runs, based on the fact that there are no rules, just finish the game as fast as possible, those records will always stand, but when you look at the category (No Wrong Way), instead of making it 100% glitchless, it only excludes one glitch... just one. Glitchng through a wall is absolutely very sketchy.
I feel the community needs additional categories, not erasing the old ones, but additional categories where cheating is prohibited.

 
  TompaTompa

Going through the wall in Bowser's Castle is not a glitch at all. It's, as explained, part of a programmed mechanis that avoids Mario from getting stuck in a wall. Sometimes you may even be required to scroll through walls in regular gameplay, such as at the blocks in the beginning of 1-3.

The spot in Bowser's Castle was also included in their official strategy guide: https://i.imgur.com/Y8uhmxW.jpg
In the guide you can also find the Third Door in 3-F1, where you go into a door in midair with a 1 frame timing: https://i.imgur.com/NC1EYB3.jpg
As well as Walljumping, which is a technique that Nintendo have known about since SMB1 but left behind here and was also featured in that guide: https://i.imgur.com/1NZa7PF.jpg

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  CujoIHSVCujoIHSV

The No Wrong Warp category excludes one major glitch that completely changes the run. A run that includes the wrong warp is fundamentally different from a run that excludes it. That is why we have a category that bans just the wrong warp.

"Sketchy" is subjective, and if you discuss this with the rest of the community you'll find that almost no one else shares your reluctance. You'll need a stronger foundation for your arguments than sketchiness if you want to make any headway.

Repeatedly characterizing tricks you personally don't like as "cheating" when the consensus within the community is that they are fine won't get many people on your side either.

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  JhugomegaJhugomega

To expand my point further I can definitely elaborate.
A better definition of glitchless, or can otherwise be known as Cheat/Exploit Free:
Any exploits, glitches such as-
Improper directional use of a programmed transportation device (ie: Wrong way warp, and DKC2 Expired Time Barrel Glitch) Passing through or exploiting solid walls (Wall glitching (SMB3 & SM64), Wall Jumping or Area Skips, with exceptions to intended invisible walls ie: DKC and Super Metroid)
Permanent Temporary Powerups, or Overleveling (ie: Secret of evermore overuse of status effect glitching)
Obtaining additional items/ammunition by illegitimate means (ie: Pokemon's Missing No. Glitch, Legend of Zelda: OOT Bottle Glitching)
Cartridge or system errors, sometimes occurring with equipment failure (ie: visual errors/ screen distortion)
No cheat codes or cheat menus (through unlocks or pre-programmed special codes)
No Game Genies, Gamesharks, or Code Alertering devices that can interfere with the game's original programming.
Any other code breaking method to unfairly advance your progress in the game not as originally intended for progression by the original programming of the game.
Any of these infractions whether intention or accidental, shall deem your run ineligible for this category.

These games are made with the intention of progressing normally, exploits are found after many playthroughs which can break the foundations of the original programming's intent and in my opinion, is why each game deserves a separate category for exploit free playthroughs.

 
  TompaTompa

None of the examples I mentioned are glitches/exploits, as they are all techniques defined by the developers, making them features.

 
  CujoIHSVCujoIHSV

The intentions of the game developers are impossible to discern without asking them directly or referencing official documentation. As has already been pointed out, wall jumps, zips, and even 3rd door are all SUPPORTED by official documentation. If developer intent is your justification for banning these techniques, then you have even less of a leg to stand on than most people do when they claim developer intent in other cases.

To your other points:

Improper directional use of a programmed transportation device (ie: Wrong way warp, and DKC2 Expired Time Barrel Glitch) -- This is already banned in all categories except Any%.

Passing through or exploiting solid walls (Wall glitching (SMB3 & SM64) -- I've already addressed this in my first post.

Wall Jumping or Area Skips, with exceptions to intended invisible walls ie: DKC and Super Metroid) -- Again, this is an INTENDED MECHANIC ACCORDING TO NINTENDO THEMSELVES.

Cartridge or system errors, sometimes occurring with equipment failure (ie: visual errors/ screen distortion) / No cheat codes or cheat menus (through unlocks or pre-programmed special codes) / No Game Genies, Gamesharks, or Code Alertering devices that can interfere with the game's original programming. / Any other code breaking method to unfairly advance your progress in the game not as originally intended for progression by the original programming of the game. -- These are already banned in all categories. Also, you should examine precisely what you mean by "unfairly advance your progress". Unfair to whom? In what way?

One more note on developer intentions. Regardless of what the developers intended, there are no video game police patrolling the streets and looking for dirty, stinking cheaters who don't play the game exactly the way it's supposed to be played. The closest thing we have to that is moderators on websites like this. If you spend time participating in the community (do more runs, hang out in other runners' streams, join the discord server, etc.) you might find that the moderation for SMB3 at least is mostly a reflection of the SMB3 community as a whole. If and when there is a significant and ongoing demand for glitchless categories on the main leaderboards, the community as a whole will decide whether or not to add them.

 
  JhugomegaJhugomega

There are no video game police patrolling houses, but there are administrators overviewing each record submission to deem their eligibility, which is essentially the "policing" you are referring to that doesn't exist.
As for your defense of wall clipping/glitching, non of these stipulations impact any pre-existing categories, and in no way make those records ineligible for the category they were entered to.
These rules I have laid out, whether you agree with them or not, are for a Separate category with the rule being, the complete removal of obvious exploits. Wall glitching as it stands allows you in four separate areas of bowser's castle where players have been clipping through allow you to skip large portions of the castle. These are not secret rooms, or areas that can be unlocked (ie: SMW's Bowser's back door) These are exploits, which are perfectly fine for Any% or 100% runs, but there are other players who are now forced to use these exploits in their runs to be competitive, because everyone else is using them, which is why we need Cheat Free categories for those who don't appreciate having to rely on cheating the system to set a record.
Different categories for different play styles. I do not like exploits, and my runs wont include them, which is why in the current state, my times will never be in the top 10.
Use them if you like, and you are welcome to as in the current categories, they are allowed, and you are not discouraged from doing so, which will not affect the current community, even after making this new category, this is expanding the current system, not changing it, as now there will be another branch of enjoyable to watch gameplay styles built solely on properly timed game mechanics rather than exploits.

 
  KiruaKirua

Alright, a few things:

1/ "Glitchless" (regardless of what is/isn't a glitch) won't be added to the main SMB3 LBs on SRC. The four categories listed in the SMB3 LB are categories that have a long history/competition/research and that accurately represent what the SMB3 speedrunning community is about. We're not gonna add a category that - as Cujo explained many times - is almost identical just because one person wants to play by his own rules. You're free to do that on your own, but unless there's suddenly a massive community interest in glitchless, there's no reason to dilute the LB. For example if tomorrow I decide that using fireballs to kill Bowser is cheating (see the room layout? clearly they wanted you to kill Bowser in the pit), people are not gonna create a new category just for me and my unique approach.

2/ You overestimate how much time is saved by the zips. You keep acting as if the zips are the only reason your time is not near the top, and that nobody can be competitive without them. To give you an idea, it's quite easy for any top player to get sub 11 without using any zip in Bowser Castle (top of my head the two zips you can see in runs like Mitch's save around 7s combined and not 30s like you claim in your guide). Maybe you should stop being obsessed by how much time you lose in BC to the zips and work on the 50s you can save everywhere else if you actually want to be competitive.

3/ You come, tell people who've researched and worked on the game for years and years that they are cheaters and that you can't be competitive against them because of their cheats, and you expect them to accomodate you? Get fucking real.

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  JhugomegaJhugomega

Exploits are always acceptable in the current categories, however those who do not wish to complete runs riddled with exploits, I am asking for a new category, not alter the current ones. In this category, no, none of that will be allowed. Those have studied for years can continue to do so. Those categories will never change or be erased. I'm only asking for one to be Added. Not altered.

 
  KiruaKirua

See point #1 in my previous message.

 
  Lawso42Lawso42

But what purpose does adding your ridiculous category have? Other than masturbating your ego more since you clearly need to feel superior to these dirty cheaters who are using these awful cheats to be better at a video game than you.

 
  JhugomegaJhugomega

Wall glitching is an exploit.
The mechanic used is a featured nintendo put in to prevent mario from getting stuck and making the game unplayable.
It however is not intended to allow players to skip parts of, or in some cases in 100%, ENTIRE LEVELS.
The fact that these are allowed to be implemented are not in debate here, they ARE allowed and will ALWAYS be allowed, nobody is trying to change this.
No exploits/glitching changes the entire way the runs will be played, because you are no longer able to skip considerably large sections of levels through your playthrough.
I will say it again!
Any% and 100% will always have exploits, because the definition of those categories entails to finish the game in the fastest way possible, using any methods available to you. So Yup! Use those exploits, I'm not telling you to stop, I actually encourage you to keep using them in those categories, because that's how they are built to be speedrun.
But guess what? They are still exploits whether you care to admit that or not. I am not attacking the credibility of your runs, as I said, those categories will remain the same and will always depend on players finding new routes to achieve faster times. Play how YOU want to play. Enter the categories YOU like to run, if they include exploits, use them! I'm not saying don't.
What I am saying, is that I do not like using exploits in my runs, and wont. I am requesting a NEW category separate from the ones you are defending, in which I don't have to use or depend on exploits to make my time faster.

 
  KiruaKirua

I'm going to try one last time because we've already replied to that and everybody understood from the start you wanted a separate category and not to modify existing categories (yet you keep replying as if we said you wanted to modify existing categories).


We will not add a new category just because you wanna use your own rules. That's not how it works.

I can't make it much clearer than that.

And lastly, when you say "No exploits/glitching changes the entire way the runs will be played, because you are no longer able to skip considerably large sections of levels through your playthrough.". That's just plain wrong.

In any% no WW, there's a 7s difference in BC between the standard route (not talking about the route in my PB) and the route without the two zips (zip after the door and 1-up zip).

In 100%, not a single zip is used before world 7 (well technically you can go for one at the end of world 6). In world 7, 7-1 7-7 and 7-9 do have zips (although very few runs actually zip 7-7 and most people don't do zips in 7-9 either). Basically for most runs, the difference is 7-1 and Bowser Castle alone.

We do not have glitchless categories in the LB already precisely because it makes a very small difference over the course of an entire run.

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  mrcab55mrcab55

Wall jumping is in a Nintendo publication as something the player is encouraged to try out, as Tompa said.

As Kirua said, there's minimal difference between the categories.

My vote is a strong NO on separate boards.

 
  Lawso42Lawso42

Here's the deal, you can run the game however the hell you want to run it, that's the joys of this hobby. Do what you want to do, we don't care. You don't want to use "cheats" or "exploits," knock yourself out, we won't stop you. But there is absolutely no need for a new category/leader board because you don't want to do 4 fucking tricks (two of which no one but the absolute top tier runners do).

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  LivLiv

I learned something new from this ridiculous thread, and that was that I never knew Nintendo themselves actually explained some exploits as tips for beating the game in their official strategy guide.

The more you know.

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  JhugomegaJhugomega

"We will not add a new category just because you wanna use your own rules."
Actually that's exactly why there isn't just one category. Every category has its own set of rules.
"You overestimate how much time is saved by the zips."
Anywhere from 20-30 seconds can be cut from your run by using these wall gitches, where as cutting time from my personal best, I could maybe save about 15-20 seconds maximum if I had an absolute perfect run and some rng luck. Still wouldn't quite make it, because not using exploits puts me at a disadvantage for this category. So no, with my current no exploits runs, I can not be competitive even with a perfect run, unless I use exploits.
Its essentially like doing a no wrong way strategy in an Any% category.
So yes, I would like a new category that accomidates my playstyle, hence my new category request. I probably still wont get 1st place or even the top 10, as there are many talented speedrunners, however at least I'll have a better playing field.
Add it or don't, at least its created a discussion within the community.