AxendsAxends

Reason I'd have it separated it cause the SC is drastically different from the NSC route. You do a lot of damage and it seems you have no fear of death as well. Just like LV99 Data Org. It looks like Dark Balls aren't even a problem in the SC. Like yes it's faster but you're sort of technically not LV1 at that point then. Same with stat boosting at LV1 for 2FM. I'm up for differentiating it though with SC and NSC at least. But it's still seems like a totally different category at the end

Sly1020Sly1020 likes this. 
  gamebrain1gamebrain1

But the thing is though, nothing in the game except the battle level changes. Sure some things seem like less of a threat, but all of that is due to the battle level. I have really mixed thoughts on this but in general I am leading towards keeping it the same category. In the end I feel a good choice may be to create a vote and let democracy settle this. Nevertheless since people like Moon, who is basically the main runner right now, has expressed dislike for non-separation I'm ok with separating them.

 
  RebelDragon95RebelDragon95

But the fact you do more damage makes it completely unfair to those who don't want to save corrupt for whatever reason, that makes it certainly a category split.

For me save corruption should always be a different category.

I'm fine with whatever happens but would be a little disappointed if they were the same category.

AxendsAxends likes this. 
  AxendsAxends

It's because of how drastic of a change it is. like I've been planning on coming back to this but comparing sonic's WR with the NSC, you can see how big a difference it makes which is why I understand Moon wanting it separated. If it's going by vote then I'm going with separating them

RebelDragon95RebelDragon95 likes this. 
  AxendsAxends

I'm with Rebel on this one. SC seems too big of a change to be implemented with the current category. But whatever happens, happens

RebelDragon95RebelDragon95 likes this. 
  gamebrain1gamebrain1

Well the thing id though, in speedrunning you gotta do what you gotta do to go fast even if it may be different. Nanner's route in Aqua beginner isn't treated separately for example, just because he does extra damage to bosses (due to grind) even though it is faster. Which is basically what save corruption does, it does extra damage. I was leaning towards saying that they should be separated but this just makes me feel weird about it. You can't just make a separate category just because something makes a run significantly faster. The idea of speedrunning is doing things as fast as possible. CoR skip was banned because it ignores a KEY component of the run, meanwhile with save corruption you still go through the entire run. That said I feel like its counterproductive to ignore something that makes you do the game faster just because you deal more damage and have an easier time. That should even be a positive instead of a negative thing because it will lead to the evolution of the category in terms of perfection.

 
  RebelDragon95RebelDragon95

This is a completely different case than nanner's route in Aqua beginner, Nanner's route for aqua beginner doesn't use a "glitch" to go faster it grinds to a point where you do major damage to everything.

I am not saying split them because one is faster than the other its based on the way to achieve the file, the save corruption, to me anything that uses save corruption should be separate. The fact is you use a glitch to achieve is what makes me want them to be separate.

AxendsAxends likes this. 
  Bl00dyBizkitzBl00dyBizkitz

So I'm seeing a lot of comparisons to LV1 Data Org vs LV99 Data Org as a reason to make them separate categories, the reasoning (if I'm not mistaken) is that Save Corruption makes the category way easier and thus way different than No Save Corruption. So the mindset here seems to be that RoD RTA NSC and RoD RTA SC is just like LV1 Data Org and LV99 Data Org.

My problem with this analogy is that LV1 Data Org is very technically demanding and difficult, while LV1 RoD RTA is not. As someone who has run RoD RTA before, it literally is just spamming Magnega next to the portals while spamming Mines or Thundaga. Darkballs can kill you but that's due to pure RNG whether or not they stay in the Magnet. I suppose the major difference is Dark Hide since you can tank his hits easier now, but that's the first actual change I've listed thus far. So in my eyes, what Save Corruption does is just speeds up the process of spamming Magnega+Mines/Thundaga to kill stuff. It doesn't take away technical skill and knowledge needed because it was never there in the first place. This is literally just another timesaver in any other speedrun.

Sonicshadowsilver2Sonicshadowsilver2 and TheNannerpuss12TheNannerpuss12 like this. 
  Sly1020Sly1020

you can say data org is just spamming combos and fires on some fights

 
  Bl00dyBizkitzBl00dyBizkitz

And the person saying that would be horribly wrong and missing the point.

 
  RebelDragon95RebelDragon95

I'm not saying that the fact that it makes it easier/saves time is the reason for the separation. I know how easy RoD RTA really is but the fact you use a corrupt save to do this is really what makes me feel separation is needed.

 
  gusxandigusxandi

so about the yes or no for save corruption variable, If i did a run with save corruption and another run without save corruption, Would i have two pbs in the same leadeboard?

 
  JHobzJHobz

Quote

so about the yes or no for save corruption variable, If i did a run with save corruption and another run without save corruption, Would i have two pbs in the same leadeboard?

You could, or could not; it's up to us to decide. We can either make the variable obsolete worse runs, or make them both stay there distinct. I think, for the purposes of discussion, the variable should probably obsolete runs and if we wanted to not obsolete them, then a subcategory is probably the way to go.

Sonicshadowsilver2Sonicshadowsilver2 likes this. 
  gusxandigusxandi

if runners want to split the category, i would prefer the idea of sub categories better than putting a variable.

 
  TimmiluvsTimmiluvs

Echoing what I said before as a good compromise - keeping RoD RTA (Critical Level 1) and adding tabs to indicate sub categories (think 1.5 beginner vs. 1.5 proud, both are Any% but are treated differently and have their different set of runs.)

This way there is no mixing of runs, instead you have a single category with 2 different sub categories. No mixing, no variable, just the same category with different sets of times due to a drastically different route.

RebelDragon95RebelDragon95 likes this. 
  gusxandigusxandi

Also i personally think that people that run the category or had a past in running the category should have more "weight" in the decision than putting this decision to "vote democracy" to people that never did the category.

 
  AlexisMousyAlexisMousy

I'm just gonna agree with timmi here, I like the Idea of having it still be the same category but with variation like the proud v beginner example from 1.5. Like I said from the beginning, I figured there would be people who didn't want to use the SC and those people would probably feel alienated if in the end we did keep them on the same LB. There will still be a variable but just as much of a variable as putting down proud or beginner. The variable just places the run in it's proper sub category.

I also agree with Gus that only people who've run the category before should have the final say on this, as I have not I'll just try to help a decision be made by those people as best I can.

 
  AxendsAxends

I've ran RoD as well but you still have fear of death due to that RNG. And the big change on dark hide as you won't get hit to 1HP from one hit. But saying that LV99 Data Org shouldn't be a category cause it's too easy then is ridiculous then. Cause I've done it before too and it requires technical demanding. And if it's just another timesaver then there's no need for CoR Skip for Gold Crown to be it's separate category cause it's just a major timesaver

RebelDragon95RebelDragon95 likes this. 
  AxendsAxends

I'm up for whatever decision is made in the end but just saying it's another timesaver doesn't mean it's completely right for no separation. That's like saying the save corruption for Pokémon Gold should be merged with the regular Any% cause it's just another time saver. I do agree with the LV1 Data Org and LV99 Data Org comparison with NSC and SC. And how RoD is just magnega+thundaga spamming. Then should LV99 Data Orgs firaga spamming run just be a category on the leaderboards then? See it's just very mixed logic at the end. We all see it from a different view.

RebelDragon95RebelDragon95 likes this.