Forums  /  Kingdom Hearts  /  Backwards-compatible PS3s
  DrazerkDrazerk
(edited: )

As many of you know we typically review a console and see how its loading times match up to current submitted runs. When the new 3DS came out I tested its loading times for Days and Re:Coded but while I was doing this we temporarily prevented new 3ds runs from being added to the leaderboards before we finally decided to allow them. However, with backwards compatible PS3s the mods discussed the issue thoroughly and after multiple votes we came to the conclusion that runs on backwards compatible PS3s save too much time to be grouped in together with PS2s and so we banned the console due to the limited availability of the console. Any current backwards compatible PS3 runs we have found on the leaderboards have been removed due to them being submitted falsely.

After a recent set of votes, we have decided that backwards-compatible PS3 runs will not be banned altogether, but instead can be created as a miscellaneous category on any PS2 game if at least 2 people run it and request it (in order to foster competition). For those wanting to see the results you can see the strawpoll here:

http://i.imgur.com/QsZs0km.png

which was the final runoff vote after an initial poll with more options:

http://i.imgur.com/XwpRPPv.png

In order for a new PS3 category to appear on one of the PS2 leaderboards, the following must occur:

1. A post must be created on the specific game's forum expressing intent
2. At least two people must add video links to runs done on backwards-compatible PS3s to the post (also saying they want the category added)

ps. Toji is a ちんこ

SaiyanzSaiyanz, DJSALTYNUTZDJSALTYNUTZ and 3 others like this. 
  PunchyPunchy
(edited: )

Jesus christ Sly.

But yes, that illustrates the point quite nicely tbh. Just give the dude his damn category. It's fastest hardware, he did a run. The rule of "needs 2 runs (so DJ can't get viewers to request)" is impossible to read as anything other than being weirdly spiteful to DJ in light of Sly's posts where categories with 1 or 0 runs get made all the time.

P.S I didn't vote in that strawpoll (with its amazingly representative sample size of NINE PEOPLE wowowowow) and if I had the vote of "allow/don't allow" would've been 50/50 so chalk that up if you want.

To kind of unpack the flurry of a run-on paragraph in Sly's post (that shit is really hard to read, man):

"or take the rule away I do not understand how is it "hard" for a mod to look at the beginning and ending and timing it them selfs which is just the basic of what they could do."

The timer rule is dumb and bad and I have no idea how its survived this long. Not really a topic for this thread, but still. +1.

"Also i might as well mention it but as far as i can tell Sonicshadowsilver2 publicly tweeted that one of his runs times is not valid because his videos of his ps4 runs skip"

Tweets in question: https://twitter.com/Sonicshadowsil2/status/852755676833042432

Having been shown one of the runs in question:

(at 3:15 ish)

Observe how it skips like three full seconds and then freezes for many seconds and otherwise frameskips all over the place. This /was/ on the leaderboard and the timing is probably wildly off from just timing it off the VoD. Again, not really a topic for this thread, but probably bears looking into.

Kinda felt the need to clarify Sly's own points because I got the feeling it'd just ignored in that giant hard-to-read block of text.

 
  neraigoneraigo
(edited: )

Would need clarification, but AFAIK the 2 run rule has been redacted or is currently not being enforced. And the big difference to me between a category with no runs and a console with no runs is just that. Many categories have runs on different versions. For example, KH2FMHD PS4 Standard Any% does not have a run yet but has had runs done on PS3 so it makes sense to keep the category on PS4. This doesn't apply to every empty category but for the majority it does.

A BC PS3 is a console specific thing as opposed to a category/difficulty specific thing. The definition of the rule is also talking about comparing PS3 to PS2 times or making a console a specific category so that the leaderboards aren't skewed to faster loads. That is another discussion and I know other communities do approve of this but the KH community in general has been against comparing significant load differences on the same leaderboard. (KH2FM PS2 vs KH2FMHD PS3).

Ultimately the ruling is looking at comparing a console/loading difference for the same category rather than comparing different categories. Therefore I don't understand why the rule would apply to currently empty categories.

P.S. The strawpoll was between leaderboard mods who were making a decision on how to mod the leaderboards, so it makes that only the leaderboard mods voted on the strawpoll.

RebelWattRebelWatt and TimmiluvsTimmiluvs like this. 
  TimmiluvsTimmiluvs
(edited: )

For many of the categories you've listed, they are added by default because of the way variables work. For example, on PS3, people have done runs of BBS Standard categories. So this means that when we add PS4 as a variable, it auto inherits all of the other variables associated with that game. So yes, for games where we have a variable for different consoles, it auto inherits the difficulty variables which means that it will have empty runs. This is not something, to my knowledge, we can change. We can't make variables hidden by default until runs are submitted when they inherited like this.

Succinct, that strawpoll was voted on by the mods, not the general community. We only had 9 at that time. Understand something before criticizing it.

Finally, no category was added willy nilly. When a new category is added, it is discussed in discord/twitter among the runners of the game and the LB mods themselves. A category gets added when it has enough interest and enough people say they want it added. There is no random adding of them it happens with a process. The thing about BC PS3 is that nobody cares about it. No runners of the games have any interest in having it on the LBs because there is no interest in it being run. Not even the only runner of these games on a BC PS3 has returned with any interest in having it on the LBs.

A final point - the LB mods admitted on multiple occasions after this thread's creation that the two run rule was stupid and wouldn't be a consideration. So, that isn't preventing anything. And for what it's worth, I had 1J 100% added two days ago b/c Im doing a run tomorrow. Like I said, it's a process.

(And yes, what neraigo said, all of that too)

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  PunchyPunchy

"that strawpoll was voted on by the mods, not the general community."

Ok well that's /worse/ then, but sure.

"Understand something before criticizing it."

oops pardon me for not being psychic

"So, that isn't preventing anything."

Then....where is it?? If that rule isn't a consideration, what's actually stopping it now? It's been months.

 
  JHobzJHobz

I think there's a misunderstanding about the two runners "rule." Let me try to make it clearer:
For any category that is not clearly well-defined by the game (e.g. Any% - clearly defined vs. Destiny Islands Battles RTA - not clearly defined) we require express interest from the community before adding it. We judge each new category independently and make the call to add them on a case-by-case basis. This is why, for example, Cheat% is not on the leaderboards despite its (albeit, short-lived) popularity; it just doesn't make much sense to allow a hacked version on the leaderboards. We use the "two runners must want it" policy as a general guideline when adding categories. There are some categories it makes more sense to apply it more strictly to than others, BC PS3 being one such example. There are no real gameplay/route differences between PS2 and BC PS3, so there is not much point in adding it if there is no competition.

Now, to talk about specifics. As Neraigo and Timmi mentioned, almost every single category listed by Sly exists due to its existence on another version of the game, or because it is a well-defined category in the game (e.g. JJ 100%). Timmi is partially right on the variable stuff too; it is significantly more difficult to hide some of the categories for different versions due to how SRDC variables work. Additionally, we cannot hide them at all if we want to still allow people to submit to them, even if there aren't any runs yet.

We feel this loose policy on requiring express interest from the community is necessary because our leaderboards are already very cluttered with categories as it is, which makes it very hard to digest for new visitors to the site. We also feel that it's a pretty lax policy seeing as we only really ask that you find at least one other person to run your category. Otherwise, what is the purpose of a leaderboard for it? You can obviously keep track of your own time locally, as many do.

Lastly, some categories that only have one run remain that way due to being grandfathered into this general guideline.

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  Sonicshadowsilver2Sonicshadowsilver2
(edited: )

The reason why I retime my runs after streaming it directly from PS4 was to make absolutely sure it was accurate to what I got during the run. If it wasn't accurate, I would not have uploaded it and submitted it to the Leaderboards like with other current PB runs that I got during the big relay race. Also the VOD used to pause for a bit when it skipped from streaming from PS4 back when I was running KH3D HD, but now when running on the KH HD 1.5 + 2.5 ReMix collection, the VOD doesn't pause at all when it skips for some reason, as shown here:

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  DJSALTYNUTZDJSALTYNUTZ
(edited: )

technically, there already should be a BC PS3 for KH-E since tojimaru did do a run of it years ago. So why hasnt BC PS3 added to the LB, since i just PB'd on 4/20

@timmi i am interested in having BC PS3 in the LB, i already have two PBs soooo.....

 
  PunchyPunchy
(edited: )

That sounds like someone requesting it to me. It seems like a fairly reasonable addition as well since it's not really a different category, it's different hardware for an existing one.

Scrolled back through the forum, found this thread where he literally requested it 11 MONTHS AGO: http://www.speedrun.com/kh/thread/icqp8

bruhhhhhhhhhhh

 
  DJSALTYNUTZDJSALTYNUTZ
(edited: )

@Punchy
They dont care about BC PS3 simply the community "disapproves" of DJ
Which is not fair and they're bias towards me
And its not because i assume it
Its because one of the Mods said it himself, as a harsh reality

I spend months optimizing the games and RE ROUTED Level 1 1.5 in addition to creating Level 1 AW and Level 1 JJ
I remember when i said sub 4 is possible and people LOL'd at me, now look at the time freakin sub 3:30:00!!1

(I forgot to mention I was the one created CHEAT% 1.5 + 2.5
And showed runners how to modify saves)

Not only that i even put in effort learning this hardware and invested my income to this and i get hated because
I'm running on a Banned console, even tho SONY LETS you play PS2 games on that console

I put in the effort in making new strats for KH-J and KH-E
sure im not an AMAZING speedrunner but at least i put in the effort when it comes to routing and coming up with strats

But you know what im glad what I did and people are learning about this topic and this LB needs to evolve

 
  RebelWattRebelWatt

Actually, the runners of the game said they didnt want to have BC PS3s to be allowed. I personally went and asked every runner of the game, excluding you because it was obvious where you stood, and every one of them, except for one, said they do not want to have BC PS3s on the leaderboards. The one exception said he did not care. That was just for the KH1 original games. If we allowed BC PS3 then we would have to go to the other games and do the same. The people that I spoke with from other games did not want them either.

"Which is not fair and they're bias towards me "
I can not count how many times I removed myself from discussion about you, when I was a mod, because I didnt want my opinion of you to dictate what I voted for. That is the reason why your run was allowed for a brief period of time. The when it was added, the runners of the game got angry about it, not just Timmi, like you would like to believe.

The effort you put into level 1 and other stuff is amazing. I will outright say that. You did a great job with finding strats and helping get the run to what it is today. That, however, is not relevant in the slightest.

Regardless of what you may believe goes on or the reason why BC PS3s are not allowed, the fact is that, at least when I was a mod, we did everything we could to not have any biased decisions. You said that you had a LB mod tell you that there was. If there really was, then you should say who it was and who is the one causing this, because obviously if this is true, then they are not fit to be LB mods. So until you give me hard evidence that someone is being biased against you, I simply can only go off what I know from experience. Which is that there are no biases.

 
  TimmiluvsTimmiluvs
(edited: )

For what it's worth, go ahead and add the run under a Misc. category on the game. I was against it because at the time it violated the rules put in place at the start of this thread, however those rules were overturned later on due to the plain stupidity of them. This was all discussed in depth in the Discord in the #leaderboards channel.

At that time, all you had to do was ask again to have the category added and it would have most likely been added. As long as it's not compared to PS2 I don't care if it is there or not anymore. It make's no difference to me if it exists under a Misc. category for BC PS3 Any%. But again, that is my opinion, just one runner.

And that forum from 11 months ago that Punchy referenced is what started this discussion. In fact, that forum post doesn't even contain a request, it's just a simple question. That question was answered pretty clearly at the time and it was decided to not allow the console on the LBs at that time for a couple reasons - primarily of which is stated at the end of the thread "There isn't enough interest in it to allow it or do anything about it". It wasn't so much he was requesting it, it was more of an inquiry on it's legality for the LBs. He was not ignored then, he has never been ignored in his requests.

It wasn't until months later (6 months later as you can see by the 5 month old OP on this thread) that he made a formal request (it should be noted he didn't actually request it then either, he just went ahead and submitted his run with the console listed as PS2 and never told anyone it was actually on a PS3, it wasn't until during a close inspection by a moderator that they noticed the difference in performance over PS2). At that time a discussion was held over a week or so and the decision was changed to allow it under certain conditions. Then a month or so later, it was decided even those limitations were arbitrary and were thrown out too (like I mentioned before and like was mentioned early on in this thread)

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  DJSALTYNUTZDJSALTYNUTZ

@Timmi

Sir, Let me tell you something
Whenever i submitted that run on the PS2 category i MENTIONED it was ran on BC PS3
Go ask the mods to get my rejected runs and look at the comments i made whenever i PB'D for KH-J
I even have multiple witnesses seeing that PB and it was commented ran on BC PS3 while labled PS2
(Since there was no information about it at the time)

You know whats the irony, THEY APPROVED IT
I dont have a clue what a Mods job in KH LB
since they just look for two things
Timer + Video
The rest i assume they dont look into
Man if this was SDA, oooh boy having a run wasnt easy back in those days.

And having the category under Misc. is GOOD ENOUGH
All i care is that there's information about the console
Besides Tojimaru did a run on BC PS3 for KH-E
https://gyazo.com/89fd70beeb17209f559160fe478be50f
https://gyazo.com/5dda596d789bd0fb930b2c02885ad3c0

and now since i justed finished KH-E
BY THE RULES they can NOW add BC PS3 on Misc. for KH-E

@Watts
Then explain why the posts on the KH discord that all i did was post a PB of KH-E
it was suddenly removed?

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/eyJ1cmwiOiJodHRwczovL3RodW1iLmd5YXpvLmNvbS90aHVtYi8xMjAwL182YTI2MDBmZjU0NGRhYWRlYzEwMGEwMjc5NTA3ZGQ5My1wbmcuanBnIn0.ycFMuIrUTn4HLTHt50vR-KrMQgI

Can you explain that?
I dont see anything wrong here
Is it because its "WR"? and its on BC PS3?
Because it is, or should i say it in a better term
"Fastest Known Time"
The fastest time in that game just simply was ran on BC PS3

 
  TimmiluvsTimmiluvs
(edited: )

I never removed that post in the Discord and have no knowledge of what happened to it.

Yes I tweeted that, but I never removed what you said in the Discord, I don't remove posts people make in the Discord for no reason (see my post in the other thread). I don't let personal opinions of someone dictate anything I do in the Discord. I would never delete a PB video/picture someone posted just because I don't like them. I never did it with you and 1-J, so I would never do it for 1-E either.

 
  DJSALTYNUTZDJSALTYNUTZ

@Timmi

Did i say that Timmiluvs removed my post?
All i said was

"Explain why the posts on the KH discord that all i did was post a PB of KH-E
it was suddenly removed?"

I did not mention anyone's name.

 
  TimmiluvsTimmiluvs
(edited: )

My apologies, I got the impression you were assuming it was me based on the context of what your post said.

 
  RebelWattRebelWatt

Yes a mod removed it. The mod asked me and I said I dont really care. You make it seem like your BC PS3 run is in the same category as the other ps2 runs, and a mod didnt want people thinking that it was allowed at the time because BC PS3 runs arent on the LBs right now. If you want, go ahead and resubmit it, then post it til your heart is content, but obvious people are going to be upset when you act like a douchebag about it. You cant say you havent, because you have been for the past year about this and many other things. It doesnt matter if you get what you want, or if others get what they want, yall still find some way to complain about something.

 
  DJSALTYNUTZDJSALTYNUTZ
(edited: )

@watts
Look i did a run
it was done on ps3 however it was in the label of ps2 EVEN THO i commented on the video saying it was on ps3, a mod approved it until someone noticed and thats how this conflict happen.
Maybe if you put it in the rulez on the kh ps2 games no ps3 runs allowed.
This wouldnt have happen.

Now me being a prick for 6months or whatever has nothing to do how much I care about this hardware.

Just create a BC PS3 and ill submit for kh e and j

That is all i ask

People being upset about this RTA then whatever, thats not my problem.

 
  YaBoyBTrueYaBoyBTrue

I've always been on the side of BC PS3's along with DJ. As we know, however, our resident wanna-be english teacher is not the greatest and making points with correct structure or intent. It's unfortunate as I feel like things could have went much smoother if someone with a better grasp of things were to bring it up. I will always agree with allowing BC PS3's, but I also agree with the 2 runs to add rule. I'd gladly do a KH-E run so that it can be officially added whenever I get the opportunity, and I hope we can take away the hostility with DJ pulling a Pain calling mods dumb and people deleting posts or people feeling the need compare his run to what it would figuratively be on a PS2. If we can take a step back and start over without ill-will or bad blood I think we can make better progress.
That being said, I understand both sides when it comes to DJ calling it a "WR"
While it is in fact the fastest completion of the game, and even in a separate category, being the only run it is inherently WR.
BUT, I get why people wouldn't want others to think the PS2 run was beaten on another PS2.
I think if we can just be better at explaining exactly what the terms of the run were that would be better for all of us.

Yeehaw,
True

 
  gamebrain1gamebrain1

Gonna give my opinion on this real quick, in my opinion if somebody runs something, as long as its not as arbitrary as lets say "Aqua proud blizzard only without being allowed to equip high jump" it should be added. If the run is reasonable and not extremely arbitrary then there shouldn't be a problem. Example, Mirage Arena RTA. The rules are incredibly specific and weird and it only has one runner, but does that mean it shouldn't be on the lbs? In my opinion it should. The boards should server not only as competitive leader-boards but also as a collection of different runs, assuming its not anything too weird.

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