I wonder how the following would affect a speedrun. Just thinking about mission duping at the moment.

1. Exiting a vehicle while the camera stays "stuck" on the vehicle. You're able to run around while this happens. http://www.twitch.tv/kyledoesit/c/4159085 http://www.twitch.tv/kyledoesit/c/5475920

2. While logged into a police computer, while in a police vehicle, you're able to drive around. I managed to get this to work one time, but couldn't recreate it after I accidentally logged out of the computer. (No video) The wiki's state you need to be stationary, as one would expect. "When the player is stationary in any police vehicle they can access the police computer...". I really need to test some things out while this is happening.

Kill as many as you can in Broker, Dukes and Bohan, then head over to the third island, grab the heli near the water, get a weapon, get to a vantage point to kill enough cops, pick SWAT rifle ammo off the ground, gain enough ammo, head out to kill all the birds. Most of the pigeons can probably be shot from a rooftop. Use the heli wisely. A SWAT van will protect you pretty well, you could drive around in one as well and probably get most of the birds at street level on the 2nd and 3rd island.

When?

See the "Heli timing comparison" near the bottom of the above post:

I'm not kidding, it took almost exactly the same amount of time between the two helicopter types..., I even had great control over the Annihilator meaning the landing was about as quick, yet safe, as I could ever imagine I could pull off.

Consider this: ~2 minutes from end of Crime and Punishment to getting in the POLICE MAVERICK (include getting the AK and the drive to the water)

(from airport) w/ Annihilator to beginning of DYHP = ~40sec - 45sec

So, the flight from the water with the police Maverick will likely be about 30 seconds given the time it takes frome the airport. A total time of about 2:30.

---compared against---

1:10-1:20 from end of Crime and Punishment (w/ typical vehicle in that area) to airport (from airport) w/ Annihilator = ~40sec - 45sec A total time of about 2:00 - 2:10.

So, it looks like during these parts of the run, getting the Annihilator will be faster, BUT consider the time lost situating the Annihilator at the Broker apartment and pushing it out later.

Using the Maverick during these moments will definitely save at least 15 seconds. Could it even reach 30 seconds??? It likely will end up on average somewhere in between.

Also, consider the small time saves, which add up, from being extra careful with the Annihilator during missions. Concrete Jungle for sure.

The last thing to consider is what are the time saves from using the miniguns on the Annihilator during a mission such as Deconstruction for Beginners, (shooting the guys). This will save some time, I'm sure of it, probably around 15-20 seconds.

At this point, I'm unsure. My gut is telling me the Maverick is better overall, but Annihilator is so very close.

UPDATED TIMES & ADDED INFO:

Ways to get helicopter ~2 minutes from end of Crime and Punishment to getting in the POLICE MAVERICK 50 secs - 1 minute driving w/ Turismo from end of Concrete Jungle to airport 1:10-1:20 from end of Crime and Punishment (w/ typical vehicle in that area) to airport

From C&P to DYHP w/ typical area vehicle = ~1:10 (from airport) w/ Annihilator = ~40sec - 45sec

DYHP? ~1:50 w/ Annihilator ~2:25-2:30 w/ Turismo

From DYHP to CJ Drive w/ Turismo = ~50 sec Fly w/ Annihilator = ~35

Concrete Jungle ~1:50-2:00 w/ Turismo ~2:15-2:30 W/ Annihilator

From entering vehicle at end of M&tM to getting out of Annihilator at warehouse for RR (w/ Annihilator accounts for time taken to push the Annihilator out of harms way) w/ Annihilator = ~1:15 w/ typical car for the area = ~45

Annihilator before DYHP Drive to heli = 1:15 Fly to DYHP = :45 DYHP = 1:50 Fly to CJ = :35 CJ = 2:25 Fly over to Shadow = :15 Shadow beginning to apartment save spot = :40 End of Shadow to beginning of FD = :50 Final Destination (from club to where you'd get out of the heli) = :50 (at the end of Final Destination, you'd fly it back to the Hove Beach apartment) End of M&tM, retrieve heli, fly to warehouse = 1:15 Total = 10:40

Annihilator after CJ Drive from C&P to DYHP = 1:10 DYHP = 2:25 Drive to CJ = :50 CJ to airport = 2:20 Flight back to Shadow = :25 Shadow (beginning to apartment save spot) = :40 End of Shadow to beginning of FD = :50 Final Destination (from club to where you'd get out of the heli) = :50 (at the end of Final Destination, you'd fly it back to the Hove Beach apartment) End of M&tM, retrieve heli, fly to warehouse = 1:15 Total = 10:45

Annihilator after CJ (2nd option) (w/ Feltzer which is about the equiv. of a Blista) From end of C&P, to CJ, to end of CJ, to airport = 3:10 Fly to DYHP = :45 DYHP = 1:50 Fly to Final Destination = :30 Final Destination (from club to exit spot) = :50 Leaving FD to Shadow beginning = :40 Shadow beginning to Bohan apartment save spot = :40 (at the end of Shadow, you'd fly it back to the Hove Beach apartment) End of M&tM, retrieve heli, fly to warehouse = 1:15 Total = 9:40

Heli timing comparison: Final Destination (from club to apartment save spot) Annihilator = ~:50 Police Mav. = ~:50

(w/ Feltzer which is about the equiv. of a Blista) From end of C&P, to CJ, to end of CJ, to airport = ~3:10 (w/ Turismo) From end of DYHP, to CJ, to end of CJ, to airport = ~3:10

I'm going to first complete a run which at least reaches the heist mission with an early Maverick before I attempt a run with the Annihilator. There's promise for the Annihilator strat, though.

Leaving the heli at the Bohan safehouse after Final Destination will never be a good idea, regardless of which heli you have. Either you fly back and leave it at the Broker safehouse and come back for it after Master & the Molotov, or you pick it up after Rigged to Blow and eventually have to take it back to the Broker safehouse, so there's really no difference in the end. Also, there's time loss taking it to the Bohan safehouse before or after Final Destination.

Like I mentioned, splits with one heli being compared against with the other heli will truly show which one is faster, I just haven't gotten those splits yet. I'll also practice entering and exiting the Broker safehouse with an Annihilator and determine if there's an easy way to get in and out, which doesn't involve pushing with a car.

UPDATE:

I managed to get the heli after Crime and Punishment, instead of at the very beginning. I then flew to Do You Have Protection and did this mission with the heli. When I split at the end of this mission, I was +2:26. At the end of Crime and Punishment, I was +56, so had I been neutral on my splits at this point or even ahead, I would have had a split of around +1:30 at the end of DYHP. Getting the heli at the beginning of the run puts me back +4:00 to +5:00 at the end of It's Your Call.

It's now completely clear that getting the heli after Crime and Punishment is the best way to do it.

I expect to be -4:00 to -5:00 by the time I split at the end of Out of the Closet pt. 1. Heli strats are a go!

Omega, thanks for that. I'll try it out next time.

If you haven't seen this strat, watch the video below to catch up on recent events. WARNING: Twitch muted it...

http://www.twitch.tv/kyledoesit/c/5256408

Routes and times have been updated a total of [ 3 ] times:

The following are only assumptions as I haven't actually tested this to the fullest extent. Also, I believe I could have shot it out of the sky with a SMG (not micro SMG) instead of an AK. It'd be quicker to get an SMG, maybe 30 seconds faster than getting an AK.

I got the heli, saved it, and went on my way to complete the first mission. At the end of "It's your Call", I was around +5:00. Assuming 30 seconds faster with an SMG, and hopefully not having to screw around at the apartment with a saved game, I could hope to be around +4:30 instead, maybe a bit less.

I feel using the heli during Jamaican Heat is worthless. I know using it during Bull in a China Shop is worthless as I actually lost time on my splits when trying this mission out with a heli (around 10 seconds). I believe the heli should come into play AFTER Do You Have Protection.

After DYHP, go get the heli, fly to Final Destination, land the heli next to the stairs you'll come down after the kill.

Time save from end of Do You Have Protection to the beginning of Concrete Jungle: ~ -1:00

After FD, fly to Concrete Jungle. Land near the first mission marker. Get in a car while avoiding a wanted level. Drive over to the mission marker. Drive to the next marker (which triggers the three guys fleeing in the back alley). Kill them as always. Drive to the heli and wait for Jacob to get in. Fly to the next mission marker. Land on top of it. Do what you need to do in the apartment. Exit and get back into the heli. Fly to the mission end marker.

Time save from the beginning of Concrete Jungle to the beginning of Shadow: ~-10 to -20

After CJ, fly over to Shadow. Fly to the save spot in Bohan. Leave the heli there. Proceed as usual. Get back into the heli at the end of the mission.

After Shadow, fly to Roman's apartment to save the heli. Find a car and drive to the depot for Logging On.

Time save from the beginning of Shadow to the beginning of Logging On: ~ -1:00

Now, you're not going to want to use the heli until arriving back at the apartment with Roman during Roman's Sorrow. Here's another moment where I'm not quite sure how this will work as you usually teleport to the vehicle save spot, when approaching the burning apartment, and a vehicle in the way usually despawns. I'll have to find a way to avoid this. Anyway, get in the heli and fly to Bohan to complete Roman's Sorrow.

Time save from flying to Bohan: ~ -1:00

Leave the heli at the Bohan apartment save spot until the end of Luck of the Irish. At this point, go get the heli and start Blow Your Cover. Fly to the building, trigger the yellow marker, fly to the roof, land the heli to the left of the doorway on the roof, trigger Johnny, kill the police up to and including the SWAT member in the doorway leading down into the other building (the one you go down through and exit out of). Once this SWAT member is dead, Playboy X will now follow you. Run back to the heli on the roof. Fly to X's apartment. (I have tested this strat for this mission and it worked)

Time save from throughout Blow Your Cover: ~ -1:30

Fly to Brucie for Out of the Closet, once this mission begins, fly back to Playboy X's apartment and use the computer in the lobby to complete OotC.

Time save from not needing to drive to the heli tours after Blow Your Cover: ~ -1:00

At this point, you may or may not have the next Playboy X mission. If you waited for the text during the flight to Brucie, you'll have the mission available outside of his apartment. If you haven't gotten the text, you can either wait for it or fly over to Manny for Puerto Rican Connection (it pops up after completing Out of the Closet).

This is the end of opportunities due to having an early helicopter.

Total time save from using the heli: ~ -6:00

Around +5:00 at the beginning leading to -6:00 by the end of Out of the Closet. I have high hopes for this strategy. At the moment, I feel I would need to have near flawless execution in order to save time using this strat. More to come as I continue to test this out.

Oh, and the heli is REALLY EASY to get in the first place. I managed to get it five times in a row the other day. Just do as I do in the video.

The route I'm trying out during my next run:

Escuela of the Asleep Street Sweeper Packie Shot First Christmas with Playboy

¤ (4-5 calls and/or texts during the drive/fly to "Out of the Closet")

Out of the Closet

¤ (Once you begin "Out of the Closet", fly to Playboy X's apartment, land in the save spot, use the computer in the apartment lobby to complete the mission, run outside to begin "Deconstruction") ¤ (No calls and/or text because the next mission is steps away)

Deconstruction for Beginners (Heli strats)

¤ (Immediately call Playboy for "Photo Shoot" after ending his call at the end of "Deconstruction") ¤ (1 call or text during the flight to "Photo Shoot")

Photo Shoot

¤ (Possibly 1 call or text due to the quick fly)

Train (The Puerto Rican Connection)

¤ (Call Elizabeta immediately after ending Mannie's end of mission call to spawn "The Snow Storm") ¤ Probably no other calls or texts will make their way in

The Snow Storm

¤ Short drive, probably no calls or texts

Have a Heart

¤ (Hope for no wanted level when you blow up the car) ¤ (Fly to either of the suit stores. I usually go the closest one to the Bohan safe house) ¤ (I almost always get a call or text seconds after walking in the suit store door [Don't walk very far into the store though. I wait next to the security guy at the door] ) ¤ (You'll definitely get another call or text while flying to "Call and Collect". Depending on your speed, getting an additional call or text in may require you to stand next to the mission marker for some time (5-20 seconds??))

Call and Collect

¤ (Should be able to get a call or text in while flying to "Final Interview". If it hasn't come in, wait a few seconds before entering the mission marker.)

Final Interview pt.1

¤ (The Lawyers should call on your way to "Wrong is Right". Answer and hang up, then wait for the automatic call to Francis before entering the mission marker for "Wrong is Right") ¤¤¤ (Hopefully Michelle has already called you for "Wrong is Right"....that is after all the biggest concern up to this point and the reason I've changed my mission order so many times)

Wrong is Right Portrait of a Killer Harboring a Grudge Waste Not Want Knots Three Leaf Clover

¤ (Drive to the Heli Tours for a heli. Both Ray and Gerry should call by the time you fly back to where "A Long Way to Fall" begins)

A Long Way to Fall - (Land the heli on the piece of ground the stairs lead down from. Run over to the trigger area. The heli should be waiting where you left it)

¤ (Fly to Gerry for "Actions Speak Louder Than Words")

Actions Speak Louder Than Words - (Fly to the bomb, fly across the river to the mafia car, find a car, you're losing the heli at this point)

¤ (Take the Turismo which always spawns on the street after the mission begins, but be quick about it or you'll fail the mission) ¤ (Drive the Turismo to "Dust Off")

Dust Off I Need Clothes, Boots, Motorcycle

¤ (Drive the motorcycle to "Taking in the Trash")

Taking in the Trash Meltdown

¤ (At the end of "Meltdown", drive to the heli pad you took off from during "Dust Off". The helicopter should be there now that you completed "Dust Off". Pray that it's there, you must pray.)

Holland Nights Lure Hostile Negotiation Night at the Reset No Way on the Subway Late Checkout Smackdown Babysitting Tunnel of Death Blood Brothers Undertaker

(and from here on, it's the same, for now)

The way I see it, Classic% is about not allowing that which removes larges portions of SHOOTING, DRIVING, and FLYING. Taxis in IV and V aren't allowed because they remove driving and/or flying. Autosave warps aren't allowed because of the same reason. DLC weapons just give the runner more options in shooting situations, that's another reason why they should be allowed. Anything which shortens moments of standing around doing nothing should also be allowed. An example is the clip capture thing in IV. The idea of Classic% shouldn't be about running the game with features only available in previous GTAs, but rather a mix of what Jolzi and I are saying above.

Edit: ...shooting, driving, flying, and running. If something adds more flying, thus decreasing the amount of driving and running, it's fine (such as the heli). A feature which only decreases any of the four while also not increasing any of the four, shouldn't be allowed. Death warps and mission warping are an exception as they are few and far between. If they happened CONSTANTLY, a rule would have to be put in place to disallow them.

Forced or unforced DLC content, both free and paid, shouldn't matter. A person has options. They can chose to play on last gen, current gen, or PC. Maybe certain DLC won't be available on last gen, but available on current and PC. Maybe certain DLC will only be available on Xbox One or PS4. Maybe certain DLC will only be available on PC. I made my point about Vice City regarding the replay glitch. My opinion on "The Elite" is that they optimally handle their leaderboards and time/point system. There's not really much more I can say about this matter. GTA V will be my speedrunning priority come the PC release. If at that time, the rules disallow DLC, that'll be fine by me. If the opposite is true, fine by me. Majority opinion should be what determines the rules. My posts in this thread are simply to state some valid points and opinions and see how it affects other's opinions regarding the matter.

@Gael

I asked Dekap last night how much time he thinks he could have saved on his PB/WR run if he had used the current DLC. He said around 10 minutes. In your post, you seem to be wondering how much of an impact using DLC has on the run. Based on Dekap saying "around 10 minutes", I'd say it doesn't impact the run enough to consider the impact "significant". A person watching a classic% run with DLC will never feel like they're not watching a classic% run. Using taxis and mission skips significantly impacts the run, it makes the run immensely less interesting, we all can agree on this. That's why classic% doesn't allow these things.

I feel the point of the Classic% category (for both GTA IV and V) is to remove everything which makes the run, as I said, "immensely less interesting". The name "Classic" should honestly be changed as it really isn't helpful in making sense of the category. It's not about "not using features which previous games lacked", but rather "not using features which makes the run immensely less interesting."

(continued from above)

In all of these cases above, think of it in the same way the GoldenEye/Perfect Dark community does regarding PAL & NTSC: "Find a way to obtain that which you don't have, or you're out of luck." <--- This philosophy leads to a much, much more interesting speedrun. It makes everything that much more complicated. It makes a runner sit and ponder what lengths he or she will have to go to in order to achieve a precious world record.

By following in the footsteps of "The Elite", you're leading the GTA community down an even better road than it's currently on. Maybe you don't understand that "The Elite" is a very respected speedrunning community. They've been in operation for 14+ years, (shortly after the release of Perfect Dark for the N64). They know what they're doing, clearly, if this wasn't already clear from the fact that their community is flourishing all these years later.

Those of you, and I know you're out there, who are stuck in your ways and can't escape from your current opinion on this matter, need to realize the point I'm making here. I at first thought the inclusion DLC was a bad idea, but not any longer. It's time to "man-up" and at least give some consideration to these words. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to go firing off shots at certain people without given this matter any real thought in the first place. (You know who you are.) You might be thinking, "I'll look like a real fool if I pull a 180` on this one, after all I've said and done." You might be right, but you've got to do what is right, regardless of the past.

Lastly, if the final decision ends up not allowing DLC, at least consider adding a separate category which allows any and all DLC in Classic%. IMO, this is the second best option.

An additional point regarding Vice City: Unless new strats are found which make the replay strats obsolete, a console runner stands absolutely no chance at getting WR in VC. The philosophy here is clearly, "If you don't spend the money on a PC, sorry VC console runner, you're out of luck." I completely agree with this attitude. Is this not the exact opposite of not allowing DLC because some people lack the ability of obtain the DLC? Come on people (the few of you), let's get real here.

Allow DLC, free & paid. Weapons, aircraft, cars, etc. from DLC, ... allow them, in both Classic% & Any%.

Consider one of the most serious, well organized and respected speedrunning communities, if not THE most serious, well organized and respected speedrunning communities, "The Elite" (GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, and a few others). http://www.the-elite.net/ http://rankings.the-elite.net/

The runners of these games are competing for points on individual levels. You can look over the rankings pages and see how this works, if you don't already understand. The times you see for each IL are so optimized, EXTREMELY optimized...it's insane how optimized these times are. The point is, this community is doing it right, but where am I going with this?

Well, there's PAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL) and there's NTSC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC). Between GoldenEye and Perfect Dark, there are some individual level, WR times which will never be possible to obtain if you're not playing on the correct console (PAL vs. NTSC). It's all about the mostly minor, but sometimes major, difference on ILs between each version of the game. These time saves from these differences range anywhere from milliseconds to a minute+.

GoldenEye NTSC vs. PAL: http://rankings.the-elite.net/goldeneye/systems Perfect Dark NTSC vs. PAL: http://rankings.the-elite.net/perfect-dark/systems

You may be thinking, "Milliseconds???? Surely these differences which save milliseconds don't actually matter." Well, I'm sorry to tell you, but they do. I've looked into this in the past. I've also watched some of the best runners of these games, which you may have done also, and heard them talk about this exact topic, MANY times. Take my word, or go do some research. So, back to the point system and the point I'm slowly making.

They don't have separate categories for each console. A runner cannot get the WR time on an NTSC cartridge IL and earn 100 points, then go get on his/her PAL console and get the WR time for that same IL and earn another 100 points. There's only one category per IL and if you're unable to get a PAL cartridge, you're shit outta luck for ever standing a chance at some individual level, world record times, and if you're unable to get a NTSC cartridge, you're shit outta luck for ever standing a chance at the remaining individual level, world record times.

This community didn't come to a conclusion such as, "Some people don't have easy access to a NTSC console/cartridge, we better only allow PAL." (and then someone chimes in and says, "...but, but, but, what about the opposite? Some people don't have easy access to a PAL console/cartridge, I think we should only allow NTSC, or better yet, have separate categories." No, they didn't come to this conclusion. Instead, they did the right thing and had ONE category and allowed both NTSC and PAL to fight for WR times in this category. They stood by the belief that if you don't have access to this or that whether it's due to financial reasons, location reasons, whatever it may be, then you're SHIT OUTTA LUCK. "Sorry buddy, YOU. ARE. SHIT. OUTTA. LUCK."

The equivalent in the case of GTA V is: "What about people who don't have access to PSN?" "What about people who don't have access to Xbox Live?" "What about people who can't afford payed DLC? "What about people who can't even get free DLC?" "What about people who don't have easy access to internet service?" "What about people who don't have access to a SSD (solid state drive)?" etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.................

(continued below)

I know Trevor% really well. As for the rest of the speedrun, not so much. I'm sure a few of the submissions are for that category.

My GTA IV Classic% splits: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0ilud7ypl928h8/GTA%204%20Classic%25?dl=0

A few missions are left out such as Final Interview pt.2 (where you kill the interviewer), Weekend at Florian's, the "mission" where you take a photo of Gracie, and Out of the Closet pt.2 (the date with French Tom). The reason for leaving these out is because you can't count on having them available at their most optimal moments during the run. Runners of this game should learn when the most optimal times are for these missions, given their availability. Leaving these out also reduces the confusion factor, trust me.

As I asked in the OP, can these now be added to the splits section?

Mangedamn, I've expanded on what you're talking about in the OP.

I'd like to clean up the splits I use for Classic% and get them added to the "Splits" section. These will be my most up-to-date and least confusing splits thus far. There will be a split for every mission, unlike the current splits I use. I'll link the upload here when I finish with them. At that point, can they be added? Thanks.

Could the following categories be added to GTA IV?

-Roman's Sorrow w/ Brucie (Classic%) --this means everything needed to reach and complete Roman's Sorrow + Brucie's first & second mission

-Roman's Sorrow w/o Brucie (Classic%) --everything needed to reach and complete Roman's Sorrow excluding Brucie's first & second mission

We've seen how many runners pretty much only run Trevor% in V (the equivalent of Roman's Sorrow% in IV) so I think these categories should be added. Some people only have an hour or two to dedicate to speedrunning every so often. A full Classic% run is out of the question for a lot of people. Above all else, these are the top two race categories for IV.

Thanks.