Hey Erru did you take a look at the start of goldrush mine with the ramp that takes you off course momentarily?

If I were to advance the course by accidentally landing off the track to the left after that ramp and skipping forward slightly would you consider it a skip? Just by accident holding too far left(I've done this before)

You can land on the course next to it and advance the course and it's pretty obviously part of the designed course but if you land out of bounds it technically meets the criteria you state above for a skip

For a short subjective statement from me to finish

These feel like skips, cheating and that's why I call them skips with little uncertainty

I think ultimately the biggest threat that applies here is that of conflict and alienation resulting from ruleset; if runners feel as though learning these small skips is a departure from what they enjoy/see as a legitimate improvement on strategy I can see their point even on the topic of Gravel Pit first lap shortcut

I don't particularly feel strongly that the smaller "skips" should or should not be included; As someone involved in strategy development outside of skips to some extent I feel like there's been really great improvements and competition happening and it's still at too small a scale to where the ruleset really doesn't matter. Worth thinking this over we have lots of time no rush. If you force me to choose I'm biased on the side of protecting the historical runs; all of them except Tokyo have significant improvements possible without the use of any of these skips.

Probably just gonna bow out of this discussion mostly other than to answer questions or clarify about mechanics; I would be most pleased with a result that leads to the most runs being created so just gonna keep enjoying the game and improving. I have the most conflicts of interest speaking on this issue so worth being skeptical of my perceptions.

There are "bounds" or boundaries on levels separate from the guide rails that surround the track; the off-track area is technically in-bounds as none of these "skips" involve bypassing a boundary the game puts in place. The only mechanism that stops you from going outside of the track is the Reset mechanic movement is not restricted. I fear any definition that uses out of bounds as a term will be subjective in nature.

Look at the Goldmine rush run at the start with the ramp; it involves going out of the guiderails on the track and either landing on the building or on the other side. Out of Bounds is a standard naming convention but it doesn't actually make sense in this game as there are no out of bounds areas accessible. Banning anything in the off the track area is a little gray as I believe the above example shows.

A definition that limits and addresses the Reset mechanic without making accidentally going off the track invalidate a run would be ideal and the reason for me avoiding out of bounds or off track in my proposition.

If anyone is confused about Detroit I consider it to be a Reset Cancel where you cancel the Reset by advancing to the next lap; it's an exploitation of the Reset mechanic like the other skips exactly similar in function to the skip Pancakes found on Houston.

I think the debate here fundamentally should be about how to ensure a fair and honest competition first and foremost not about what defines a skip

I'm of the opinion that action should be taken to ensure the fair comparison to historical runs for new runs as a general motivation; I arguably have the most to gain from keeping Houston and Detroit skips in normal but I value using objective standards most. To be clear, the first time I talked on this issue I stated the first clause below and I don't believe it's adequate to address the current skip methods and applications. I am already theorizing new techniques and skips that will change this discussion significantly I suspect.

I am of the opinion 2 clauses can adequately address this:

1. Any technique that allows players to load track segments out of order is a skip

2. Any technique that allows the player to cancel the Reset mechanic or advance to another track segment utilizing it is a skip

If you are confused about what I mean by a track segment go into the track editor feature in-game and look at the options/compare to the courses in discussion here.

The Houston skip I found is way easier than taking the corner properly with the ramp to go faster; it's not like taking a better line/pattern of jumps it's very specifically a exploitation of the Reset mechanic and it's easier to go really fast using it. The skip as it exists isn't fully optimized as to how much time it saves because my lines are legitimately worse than pancakes' lines. On lap 1 and 2 a properly executed ramp turn is faster than the skip I suspect but actual time save is not accurately represented in my run(same thing applies to Detroit).

I am currently running Detroit without the skip and it's far more difficult to just drive the course normally. I am peaking at/near my old PB(1:12) and it's much harder even though I just got a 1:08 in a couple days after finding the skip. I don't think they are comparable fairly I should have to grind out the same levels andou etc. did. From my perspective, the clauses stated above are an objective place to start on rules on what I perceive to be a changing game with relatively rapidly advancing techniques. Advancement of understanding how to exploit the Reset mechanics IMO will continue to transform the way this game is run.

Thanks for reading my essay and I would appreciate if people here didn't use masculine terms to address me(man, dude, bro etc.) going forwards.

Cheers, Ghillie

Outdated: Watch video series instead just keeping this here to document my efforts trying to understand and explain Excitebike 64 - Forums - ExciteBike 64 Video Tutorials - Speedrun

Everything here is based on my understanding as it's evolving and subject to change. I am still learning myself and just trying to explain best I can to hopefully lower barriers to entry on these skips. If you get frustrated and are confused why it isn't working just know most of these skips are fairly precise and there's a reason they weren't discovered for so long outside of popularity. These instructions assume you are double checking positions in the videos myself and others have released of the skips.

Mechanic Terminology

Reset: When you land out of bounds the game tracks where you landed and puts you back on the track in the same segment

Bounce: During Airtime you can press left/right to affect your trajectory and holding it all the way to one side will cause you to land crooked making you jump slightly off where you land; if you do this while landing off the track the game doesn't put you back on the track immediately instead transferring momentum into a Bounce letting you travel farther before being Reset

Wheelie Landing: When landing there is a small window where you can initiate a wheelie upon landing maybe 1-3 frames

Brake/Drift Instant Reset: Landing out of bounds and pressing brake makes the game instantly put you back on the track; Pressing drift in the air and turning either has a similar effect as long as you don't crash. Drifting too far and/or not adjusting for momentum will often cause a crash just ignore this until you absolutely need to use it

Reset Cancel: If you land off the track and your wheels aren't level/you have significant momentum there is a small window of time before the game Resets you back on the track. During this time if you load the last track segment and then pass the finish line the game will let you pass into the next lap cancelling the Reset.

Lap Reset Warp(heavy speculation): If you load the last track segment, cross the finish line, and then land in a track segment other that the first segment the game will put you into the next lap and Reset your position to the last track segment skipping a lap and a bunch of time. This seems to work conceptually to explain all the current large skips even if it's likely a misunderstanding of what's going on.

These core mechanics are what I use to skip; each skip has nuances in terms of how they combine these mechanics with some having multiple options that work.

Tokyo: When leaving the ramp aim to the right of the finish line and hold down left all the way(in the notch and you can adjust angle a bit with practice). This sets up a couple options for the skip that are similar in speed

1. Wheelie Lap Skip

Upon landing you need to hit the boost holding that bottom left stick position without releasing, this part is hard to nail the timing on. If done right a Wheelie Landing and a very small Bounce combined will allow you to travel toward the lap flag without loading the rest of the track. The game tracks your position based on where you first touch down so your goal is to to wheelie all the way into the wall near the finish line; the right place to hit is just to the right of the finish line marking. If you go too far right it will Reset you back in without skipping the lap and if you go too far left it will set the lap marker and place you in the next lap failing the skip(finishing the previous lap).

The idea is that you have to be Reset onto the track where you left it without loading the last bit of track before the finish. The game doesn't track the wheelie distance before Resetting the player. Generally, a softer landing makes it easier to start the wheelie.

2. Bounce Lap Skip

It's possible yet more difficult to skip a lap without a wheelie just using a Bounce to land first in the section where you normally land and then bounce to a place just before the finish line. This is done by holding straight left after the peak of your jump to land crooked and Bounce to the left; there isn't a lot of tolerance on where to land this it has to be in the same spot as the previous but not close to the wall.

Using brake or drifting slightly before landing will cause an Instant Reset that can be used for more precision landing the Bounce. The place you land out of a Bounce is not considered by the Reset mechanic; this is I believe slightly faster on this course and necessary on other courses to rely on for skips.

Houston:

This course has easy access to the finish line off the right of the last jump. There are 2 known ways to skip the last corner both considerably faster on the last lap; on the first 2 laps a well optimized ramp turn out of the jump is faster.

I'm going to mention my strategy here first as I find it both easier and quite potentially faster.

1. Instant Drift Reset Make sure to build up a lot of speed and hold down stick position for a long time aiming to the right of the finish line. Before landing Drift and adjust slightly left to about parallel to the finish; this is done to perform an Instant Reset onto the track. If you drift too far or don't adjust landing well enough you crash and lose a lot of time. If you don't drift enough your momentum will likely push you out of the small area that's ideal to be Reset from. Depending on where you reset out of bounds you will be closer/farther to the finish line after being Reset; this positioning can be precise and save/lose a lot of time depending on where you are reset. You can alternatively/additionally use a Brake Instant Reset here if it helps you to stay/get into the right position

2. Reset Cancel The second harder strategy featured in MyOhMyPancakes' runs involves landing on the track past the finish line, braking and making a sharp turn into the finish. This is a very frame-tight trick, inconsistent, and demanding in terms of input; I don't have much proficiency with this one I know it involves a tight series of inputs only got it to work a couple times.

------Under Construction-------

Long Island:

Phoenix:

Madrid:

Seattle:

I generally like to do full game runs after I am familiar with each level

That way I can increase my consistency before "powering through" attempts on longer categories

Cheers

I'm not sure I want to do full game runs of this

ILs would be more interesting to me seeing how far you can push individual skips on levels even though the game doesn't track ingame time

I know there's an existing request for ILs but I do think breaking the game down into smaller chunks would help optimization and discovery ultimately leading to new time saves on the larger categories; other people have asked for them that's probably the best way to grow this game I think.

Best of luck on your efforts to grow and runs

Looking forward to seeing videos of this

Interesting discoveries

Splicing in 1P runs requires exact bonus points to carry over in between stages making it more difficult than most games

It's technically possible but effectively more difficult than just getting good enough to WR in most cases if not all

PAL WRs are less competitive but very encouraged

If you want to play PAL that's cool and will be recognized and celebrated by the community

As an example, Andy Panther recently went up the rankings list almost exclusively by improving the PAL records(deserved)

Good Luck on your runs, your skills will transfer if you ever can get a NTSC setup

Hey, that's correct you don't need one but it does help you to see the mistakes you are making and get feedback

When you submit on this website it gives you an option to add a video link; youtube is a good one but other sites work

Good Luck on your Runs; check out the tutorial series on my youtube channel if you haven't already(link in another thread)

Pikashy seems to be taking speedrunning this game more seriously than anyone on the planet and has for a long time

Please don't insult them by suggesting they aren't taking it seriously; just appreciate the massive efforts they have put into this game's 1P speedruns and try to learn

There's so much you can learn from these videos please just focus on that; at least they are publicly accessible

Be grateful they are here to learn from

It's a trend in larger speedrunning communities to have a clear indication of what will and won't be allowed in a succinct list. These are culturally-generated to protect from the kind of strategies for "winning" that rely on real-world harassment and insult; these aren't a clear indication of skill and IMO should be discouraged with threat of exclusion.

If there were a set list of rules in a "code of conduct" this ban would be easier to comprehend for everyone. This discussion thread is largely a result of a lack of granularity in how a ban is justified.

Regardless of why the decision was made it's justification seems to be too vague and sparking this discussion. If the response to people defending Entei was easily cited in a code of conduct then the discussion could focus on the revision of the code rather than a discussion focusing on an individual conflict between players.

Discussions on this specific case seem to be largely unable to result in meaningful and concrete changes. This discussion will quiet likely in short term but it will come back again if nothing is specified as boundaries; it's a pattern at this point and it's damaging to the health of competition, reputation, and popularity of Smash 64 speedruns.

Regardless of what happened before can we work on more clear regulations on competition? If the mods are gonna ban players I think expectations for what to avoid explicitly would help to encourage participation; both from players worried about bullying/discrimination and also from players looking to avoid being banned and excluded from the community.

Following up on what KM said:

Entei's runs were largely devoid of novel potent strategies(me too, not insulting it's an fairly optimized game) and the ones that were useful were implemented by other runners; from a strategy/gameplay perspective the removal of his runs were not a significant loss.

That's a fact regardless of the different perspectives on this

This is the history of the speedruns of Polaris Snocross on the Nintendo 64.

Well after a decade after it's release in February 2000 Polaris Snocross had been looked over by N64 time trials players attracted to other racing titles on the platform. Coming too late into the console life cycle where it was drowning in competition it never made it to the public consiousness.

In 2018, this all changed with the arrival of Caseywho, a speedrunner who had begun a journey speedrunning achieving several records on other games for setting his sights on a game from his childhood: Polaris Snocross!

November 17th Caseywho made a video request to the speedrun.com moderators to add a leaderboard. In this video he showcases the game with a Sport Tournament Speedrun without a memory card. He explains some of the basic elements of the tournament mode speedruns like stunts, placing requirements, and basic mechanics. His leaderboard request was approved the very next day on November 18th 2018

Video:

On the following 3 days Caseywho began populating the leaderboards with times using the 800 XC Sled. By Nov 20th he had filled in each of the time trial leaderboards and the Sport, Semi-Pro, and Pro Tournament categories setting the standards for runs to come.

On Nov 21st, Caseywho came back to earlier courses to implement time saves he knew were possible with the faster but more difficult to control Sno-Razor sled.

His first run submitted that day broke the 3 minute barrier on the very first course Bear River; showing the increased speed of the Sno-Razor in action! Also posting a 58 lap the first sub 1 min lap.

Video:

Utilizing the Sno-Razor more, Caseywho also posted a run of 2:20.50 on Geyser Canyon showcasing a new skip saving a whopping 6 seconds off his previous run and opening up the course significantly for improvement!

Video:

After improving some of his IL records with Sno-Razor Caseywho set his sight on using his updated routing and practice to take time off of Sport Tournament shaving 31 seconds from his previous run.

Video:

Around this time late November - Early December 2018 Caseywho was watching Wave Race 64 streams and discussing the game with the community. From these discussions suggestions had been made from those runners to try 1st person mode and also to turn off music both in order to improve the framerate resulting in faster times.

Caseywho tested these options and HUD off in 2 runs on December 5th and 6th. He noted that the game felt a bit faster with these options and completed a 2 second PB on Frozen Falls with a 2:48 bringing the time under 2:50 for the first time.

His second run was a small PB on Bear River using the same experimental settings to test. He notes in his video that the hit detection seems very different in 1st person but wasn't sure if it's faster or not.

<GhillieGuide's activity WIP>

When learning a game like smash 64 for speedrunning there is a high priority on learning the best strategies before looking to create your own. Learning bad strategy from older/less optimized runs can develop bad habits that limit you from growth.

When you are looking at the 1P records on this site some strategies are not displayed; to study the best runs using the most optimal strategies this is an important resource.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsX9Sd8ufkgpUscRJV6ulcxHZZNE9q01x

Thanks Pikashy for putting all of these into a handy playlist for access; sorry if posting here is inappropriate will remove if requested

I assume everyone who had a chance at beating enough records to claim the bounty read it and understood

I am not sure if I could have beat 7 anyways but I probably would have only responded if successful so I assume people read it and just didn't respond because they weren't successful at beating enough runs(not aware of any runs maybe someone did beat some and just didn't respond)

To call Ness 6:16 a "Free" record gives you a good idea of the difficulty of claiming this bounty; I assume the difficulty scared everyone away from trying or responding

Thanks Pancakes, sorry if it seems like a bunch of stuff all at once trying to figure out everything.

Will respond on discord just trying to start on a public archive for learning so it's easier; thanks for working on this game and good luck on your runs!

edit: my discord account is lost for now please don't try to contact me there; most responsive to YT comments, or twitter. Will respond to messages here but might be a delay