Thanks for clarifying mosin, we have our own traditions and customs here that go back years now just like the AMA. Where our ruleset differs is mostly a result of looking for objective ways to verify video evidence of speedruns instead of live competition.

AMA Supercross Ruleset provides a good framework for how to navigate a real-life competition where people are at real danger of hurting each other; sportsmanship is integral to the basic function of the event. There are risks making a ruleset here as well; we want to encourage competition on a fair playing field.

Fundamentally we have the goal of growing Excitebike 64 as a game people play, learning new things about it, having a larger community, and driving the times down. We need to create a ruleset that's inviting for new players and also rewards veterans for their novel findings to keep them engaged in competition. Most of the players active and historically significant come from the speedrunning discipline where strategies like this are encouraged. It's not a stretch to say that the exploits make the game more interesting to watch, interesting to learn, and more attractive to new players within speedrunning.

Outside of the ruleset details there's a big part of this discussion that has to start with wanting to contribute to this community. Having detailed discussions about the game, talking about strategy, encouraging and helping others is vital to influence here just like the AMA; you need to rub a lot more elbows to have an effect on their ruleset. None of us are paid or gain much reputation for doing what we do here on these leaderboards are a passion project. The rules right now are fit to our community's culture. In the AMA or here you have to show some level of respect for those that came before you to earn influence on ruleset; if you show up at the AMA rules committee meeting you have to chum up with the other members regardless of your skill in riding if you want them to change things.

Should a run no longer count because a player accidentally landed off course?

In a long category like All Rounds or 100% it's quite easy to fall off the course especially for players that are just working on starting the game or improving

I have the same question about crashing; this rule would essentially ban most currently accepted runs outside of the individual levels you are talking about

Should we disqualify runs because someone isn't skilled enough to finish without crashing or accidentally land off course?

A new definition needs to account for all categories

A skip allows you to skip a lap of driving; it's just about that simple in our current rules. Everything else is fair game(other than cheats).

This is mostly due to the checkpoint system already being successful at preventing anything that saves a lot of time. The biggest reset mechanic/off course exploits only save a couple seconds on a lap(madrid being the most extreme at the moment). You can't skip lap segments whether you are off the course or on it.

That's so cool thanks for sharing

This should be in skips because ...?

Highlights from discussion for anyone jumping in from my perspective

Where we started after I figured out how to do the lap skips ''all the true "Skips" from my definition utilize the out of bounds warp to advance track segment out of order''

"A definition that limits and addresses the Reset mechanic without making accidentally going off the track invalidate a run would be ideal and the reason for me avoiding out of bounds or off track in my proposition."

Great post by meauxdal highlighting the problem with limiting off course movement or small exploits of the reset mechanics that don't skip laps entirely "I really think it is unwise to group shortcuts which do not require any glitches or anything other than passing through the checkpoints, alongside runs which, by use of a specific glitch, trick the game into thinking an extra lap or laps were completed.

This game is exploding with potential for strategy and innovation, and I see a chilling effect occurring where viable strategies that the game allows are being shunted to the "Skips" category despite there being a clear and universally applicable definition that stands out starkly when analyzing what is happening in each run.

The problematic mechanic here is the "getting credit for laps not completed" - this is what needs to be separated out to protect leaderboard integrity. Separating other things out actually harms leaderboard integrity and has a chilling effect on strategy development, in my opinion."

Quote from the oldest champion we are in contact with andou "After reading your posts i'd prefer to see the community allow "minor skips" that involve jumping over a corner, first lap gravel pit etc. in the main categories and only limit the use of glitches that allow incomplete laps to count, skip sections of the track, etc. to be forced into the skips categories. Also, as Meauxdal brought up, please don't feel inclined to make a decision/rule based upon protecting historical runs at the expense of new strategies. I understand mine were set years ago with the available strategies at the time."

My example video intended to highlight the subjective nature of banning either off course reset or going off the course to skip over a corner: it together with this post for context "First example uses the off course area to skip part of the course without landing off the course at all

Second uses the Reset mechanic to skip driving on part of the track; this is one of the mistakes you can make on this course and it works exactly like the end of my houston laps

I think everyone agrees the first video is a skip; the other 2 are things we are looking at potentially calling a skip but in contexts where they actually lose time over current records without skips."

Reminder from pancakes "When we first made the skips category, it was to allow people to still play the tracks while not having to try and perform the necessary techniques to perform a skip."

Post wrapping up discussion from meauxdal that brings us to current day "Seems like discussion has settled down with the consensus being something along these lines:

A skip is defined as a shortcut which, by use of glitched checkpoint abuse and track reset mechanic exploitation, gains credit for a lap or laps which are not completed."

With a comment addressing the kyoto corner cut on the third lap "If finishing a lap on Kyoto is faster when cutting the corner out of bounds than taking the last turn, then doing so but not actually getting credit for a skipped lap should also be legal; i.e. running laps 1 and 2 normally, but finishing lap 3 by jumping toward the finish line as in the Skips run, and doing a buffered wheelie to pass through the final checkpoint and finish the race. No one has done this in a run yet, but its legality is an implication of the above."

sure mosin

We have a dedicated forum thread on it with 3 pages of existing discussion on the topic post there if you want responses; as a primer I'd say propose something to ban in precise terms that can be applied across the whole game objectively. I've just made a post there summarizing the discussion so far for you to jump in on; in that thread I've been the most vocal advocate for having it banned but there are issues with banning something like this(how would this apply to your seattle run, for an example you know) Excitebike 64 - Forums - The Discussion on Skips - Speedrun.com

We also have a discord for community discussions like this if you want it to be more informal; I would rather resolve any conflict between us and move forward. https://discord.gg/VUd2Qwk

When asked by meauxdal about how to land wheelies off course I responded

First I generally hold down a lot in the air when looking for a landing wheelie even past where it's optimal to maintain speed; this slows my descent a bit making the landing a little less jarring If I can I try to land with my front wheel slightly off the ground which prevents the reset for a split second and gives me a window to wheelie; you can do the same thing with a very slight turn but the window is smaller .

Landing perfectly flat and not going fast enough always resets you so you need to keep some speed and not completely level off. Once you give yourself a small window that way you can input the wheelie; don't press the boost button more than once you really only have 1 shot at it in that little window after you land. You have to time both a push down and the b press at the same time in the window created by landing slightly off level.

There have been times where I've landed with my front wheel way up and then bounced up back up straight into a wheelie"

if you press b twice going for a wheelie you reset

you can't just buffer it you have to just get the timing right and commit to it

There are some comments in the code that have been highlighted here on the cutting room floor https://tcrf.net/Excitebike_64

There's no reasonable way to limit this technique through ruleset; the game treats taking the corner as intended the exact same as this. Banning the use of the off course reset would just incentivize the third strategy shown in this video where you land on the other side of the track and turn around

I am investigating more about this game by examining the memory so starting a thread here to document my finds and create a discussion to help us learn more about how this game works(and by extension how to exploit when it doesn't). Addresses and Mechanics added to this list will be labelled by what we think they are and I will update this OP when additional ones are posted in discussion. Speculation is invited but please label it clearly if possible; posting in forum so finds are documented and anyone can weigh in.

List of Addresses:

Course Segment Counter = 0xDFF3A124

Lap Counter? = 0xDFF547C0

List of Relevant Mechanics:

Off Course Reset - This mechanic places the player back on the course after you jump over the barriers around the course

Crash Reset - This mechanic places the character back on the course after they have crashed

CHECK Value - This Value is a maximum value found on every course 4294967295/FFFFFFFF

D85B0C0E accesses DFF547C2 to write lap

D85B0C0E writes to DFF547C0(Lap Counter)

D8324237 accesses DFF3A124(Lap Segment)

D8324F9E accesses DFF3A124(Lap Segment)

D863FD93 accesses DFF3A124(Lap Segment)

D8324237 continually accessed while game is unpaused

D8324F9E continually accessed while the game is unpaused stops accessing while occupying the Lap Segment behind the finish line

D80CBFDE accesses 24A1F3DF(Lap Counter) after Start of Each Race or Restart Race 4 times

D8238CDE accesses 24A1F3DF(Lap Counter) after Start of Each Race or Restart Race Once

DFF60F74 Increments value with the timer onscreen DFF60F74(Timer Counter)

D84FFD6F accesses DFF60F74(Timer Counter) right before each lap completes

List of Known Behaviors:

• Course Segment Counter advances while in Off Course area as well as on the course
• Off Course Reset places you back on the course in the segment that was last driven on(speculation)

I have started a video tutorial series for Excitebike 64

Initially, it will be focused on explaining the skips used to give other players the tools to complete and improve skips runs

This is the first of those videos showing the basic concepts and techniques used on most skips

Pretty sure this same list is all over the internet but doing some reverse engineering and thought to dump here straight from the game's code

List of Cheat Codes

PINHEAD Pin Head Mode

PATWELLS Beat This!

UGLYMUGS Team Photo

MOWER Invincible

TRICKSTER All Stunts

XLURIDER Transparent Rider

ROTCOLS Odd Color Mode

MIDNIGHT Night Mode

INVISIRIDER Invisible Rider

SHOWOFF Stunt Bonus

WHEEEEEEEE Down Hill

IMGOINGNOW Debug Mode

YADAYADA Mirror Mode

BLAH BLAH Big Head Mode

You've been very kind and patient I wouldn't ban you for accidentally breaking a rule

I just want to change the timing method and seperate emulator no additional rules will be added, nothing changed in term of gameplay

if you have it running on 1.7 then you are good to do runs and I'll figure out the timing and post new rules/categories probably by tomorrow; guides as well

Still seems pretty fast compared to n64 now that I have it running; gonna put it in a different category and I'll compete with you on emulator instead.

Also the softlock just doesn't work on emulator at all; a huge oversight in terms of categories/rulesets on my part gonna have to rethink the timing method.

Thanks for the wakeup call gonna make some changes to this leaderboards to switch to real time and also include emulator as a separate category; the water effects just slow the N64 down so much because this game is very poorly optimized for console. Using 1.7 as a standard should keep competition fair but I'll writeup a separate guide on getting setup on emulator and another on how to time it.

Just figured this out thanks for your troubleshooting I appreciate it should have tested before putting it in the rules

Step 1: Use Project 64 1.7

Step 2: Set the ROM directory

Step 3: Right Click on the Game in the List and Select Edit Game Settings(doesn't matter if it says bad game just ignore it)

Step 4: Find Memory Size and set it to 8mb, this enables the expansion pack which is needed to run the game, hit apply and ok

Should fix the problems thanks for your patience

Just saw your speedrun now good job

video proof of this advantage is this 1:30 TAS(emulator) being run on an n64 console same inputs but the IGT comes out to 2:25; a clear illustration of the advantage I am talking about

If you watch this comparison this should illustrate what I mean about pj64 3.0 running faster; my run uses an exploit you don't seem to exploit and much more refined routing and cleaner jumps and still doesn't come close to beating your time http://viewsync.net/watch?v=xa0iCPwXVrg&t=12&v=HeGuQrvJEPA&t=7&mode=solo

If emulators just can't be comparable we can create a seperate category if need be; I got the suggestion for 1.6/1.7 from other speedgames on n64 who want to ensure fair competition.

Thanks for asking before submitting; I will add a clarification on how to get it to softlock to the rules as that's the way to "end" the run; there's a little bit of skill in optimizing how fast you can softlock so it's included in the with the time.

That's why they're listed but I am open to discussions on other emulators that stay close to the performance of a real N64. These are the emulators I know of that are accurate to the console where the new PJ64 is not(mostly for a better experience for casual players). The load time doesn't matter for in game timer but there's significantly more lag on console.

This game runs pretty poorly on N64 and emulator would just be outright better than console if not limited; there's likely other emulators that are comparable, I know 3.0+ pj64 runs faster. Shouldn't be a big deal to download and run 1.6/1.7 but if it is let me know and maybe more emulators could be added just ignorant to alternatives. Just trying to keep the competition fair.

Let me know if you have any questions looking for more competition.

Cheers, GhillieGuide