For the record, here are all the runs that have been posted to Hard Mode Truth% before it was closed. Most if not all are from before we had a hard mode 100%.

1st: Melestara RTA 20:03.300 IGT 18:32 February 4, 2016 splits.io/gfs Comment: Obligatory death @ soul -.-

2nd: Papertwo RTA 20:50.350 IGT 17:50 June 1, 2015 splits.io/5i5 Comment: Video is still only last 15 min. Only 2 deaths chocked on Gol-set. As for my splits, I split when the souls burst out of your body during the CS on the last boss of every area. Seek Truth split is when I enter the door to Truth.

3rd: ReksQ RTA 22:37.660 IGT 20:38 May 16, 2015 Comment: Very solid run, minimal screw ups with the exception of yeti xD. So pumped! Enjoy : D

4th: PoPogne RTA 25:38.740 IGT 22:26 April 26, 2015

5th: KexPolarBear RTA 36:45 IGT 27:49 April 20, 2015

Removal of Truth%:

Truth% used to be called “Hard mode 100%”, but after the secret forest boss was found, it was renamed. If people had kept running it, it would have survived as an active category. However, now it is a legacy category, because deleting it would delete the runs, and in case anyone wanted to run on the old route. But it’s been a year. In the past few weeks, tons of ideas have come up for new categories, and it turns out there’s a lot to balance when it comes to new stuff! For that reason, I have recently been thinking about removing the Truth% category. Now that DarkestUno has brought the Truth Door Skip (TDS) back into the spotlight, and SNeaky found a way to do it, the idea has been thrown around of removing Truth%, especially to make room for any new category down the line.

If we don't redefine Truth% rules, then TDS would be allowed. There's no way around it. The old runs on the leaderboard would instantly be obsolete the moment someone completed a 13-boss Truth% run. So if Truth% stood as-is, and TDS is allowed in Truth%, then it would no longer be a legacy category. The whole basis for its existence as a category is taken away, although it was a weak basis to begin with, especially since no one has run it in about a year or so.

So that leaves us two options, really: Option 1: Remove Truth% as a category. Option 2: Do nothing. Any third option like adding new categories can be discussed in the future, but it’s not relevant to the old legacy route Truth%. If TDS creates a new reason to support the existence of Truth%, then we can keep it. The question is: Does it? No, at least not right now, with what the route would be. The route would essentially be an any% run (in Hard or Normal), without killing Soul, and instead dying, with an unreliable skip, and killing a longer final boss. Unfortunately, that is not very competitive, unique, or (IMO) interesting enough to justify a category.

Leaving Truth% as a category would, in my view, be a disservice to the old runners. I think they would probably rather their runs be removed than be 6-8 minutes slower than everyone else.

Speaking of the old runners, let’s go over them real quick. 1st, Melestara, has not been seen since he cancelled his ESA run last summer. 2nd, PaperTwo is around but isn’t active on TS (I'm hoping he'll post his opinion here, but in case he doesn't, he suggested we update the rules and keep a similar category if there is a genuine interest, and he emphasized that a variety of categories is good to stave off boredom.) 3rd, ReksQ, Popo, and Kex are completely MIA.

Old runners, if you are reading this and disagree, get back in contact! We miss you! We’ll talk!

If you disagree, and you would personally be interested running a category that would include Truth Door skip, please reach out and share your ideas! It’s certainly possible to re-create a category similar to Truth%, but we can refine it a bit more instead of being confined to the old route that’s been dead for a year.

**The plan is to close the category on Monday, January 23rd, 2017. If you want to post a run between now and then, know that it would get removed along with the category. **

I'll add a link to Livesplit in the links listed in the original post.

Welcome to Titan Souls speedrunners!

[big]Discord link: ** https://discord.gg/f8mc8Rw ** [/big]

[big]Guide link: ** https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VYr7FetWtbKGAMe1QPLA3CcgB2a1vnN7pgMyhFBveck ** [/big]

Here are a few basics to get you started:

Use a controller; the four direction keys on a keyboard are a significant limitation to where you can shoot. You'll do much better with a controller that gives you 8-way directional control as well as analog stick control. The most optimal strats alternate constantly between D-Pad and Control Stick.

You don't have to stream your run live, but make sure you have video for the record if you want to post competitive times on the leaderboard!

The PS4 version of the game had a larger team working on the port, and it preloads all the game's maps. Therefore, it has no load times making it a bit faster for any% and much faster for All Bosses. The PS4's credits are, accordingly, much longer.

We use Real Time, and the timer starts when the screen flashes white (as soon as you can begin to see the in-game map or timer), right after you finish or skip the opening cutscene. Once your arrow hits the final boss, you stop the timer. The auto-splitter will help you split, especially while you are learning. We use livesplit or other timers because the in-game timer is inaccurate and exploitable (quitting and reloading after a boss rolls back the in-game timer, and the in-game timer freezes on PS4 in the final area).

Yes, the broken in-game timer is what's used to calculate the time for the in-game achievement. You just have to beat Soul for that. New players who want to get the achievement are welcome to post their times on the competitive leaderboards here! Just remember that timer accuracy is a requirement, so try to include a Real Time result.

If you're hoping to learn a competitive route, both any% and 100% are pretty easy to learn. Any% is shorter, but more punishing if you die. 100% hits more checkpoints, but there's more to learn upfront.

Remember, when you're new, focus on getting in a deathless run. Even still, a death is not the end of the run. In any%, if you die in the fire area, you can go to the graveyard as a backup. If you have a lot of trouble with the forest, you can alter the route to skip the forest. If the ice bosses give you trouble in 100%, consider starting there to get them out of the way. There's only a few seconds of difference between each route, so when you're first starting out, just do the bosses you're most comfortable with. Almost any combination of bosses can get sub14, I think.

Also, remember that the fastest strats are not necessarily the best ones. You need a certain level of consistency and confidence with each boss before you start to crank out good times, so be sure to practice and continue your runs even if your objective is unattainable on that particular run... Endgame practice is very important, too!

There is a newly discovered way to skip the titan kill animations, by storing a pause and quitting on the same frame that you extract the soul. It's frame-perfect and very risky to pull off, so we call it the "risky skip". Unless your immediate objective is a world-class time, this glitch is likely not worth risking runs on. For advanced runners, there is a link below. As a visual cue, you might want to try playing with your resolution settings. Please note that skipping a titan kill animation by force-closing the game is NOT allowed.

We do fun races on challenge/unusual categories, often held on Monday nights, but feel free to organize a race at any time!

[big]The best way to reach someone for questions or tips is on discord. The discord server is here: https://discord.gg/f8mc8Rw [/big]

The latest quick kills guide, by Zic3, it's up to date as of 2018: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlUo1IfS3VYQEdXE59imdR-bafXDCtIzY

Here's the recent Hard mode video guide, by Scrublord, up to date as of 2017: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvThs_cP6PTgDtnc11U4360R1ADdcIoq7

For those on PC, we have an auto splitter. The easiest way to activate it is with the button in LiveSplit, under "Edit Splits". If for some reason you would prefer to manually add the files to your layout instead, here is the autosplitter with instructions: https://github.com/Starcrunsher/TitanSoulsAutoSplitter

A training map pack (with quick doors to bosses) was made by Nalae. Be sure to back up your game data! It can be found here: http://www.speedrun.com/titan_souls/resources

Some speedrunning tools, such as timers, and info can be found here: http://www.speedrunslive.com/tools/

Here's some info on the "risky skip", which should only be attempted by advanced runners. Scroll down a bit for lots of clarifying posts: http://www.speedrun.com/titan_souls/thread/uc13d

New strats, tutorials, videos, and runs are created and posted all the time, but everything is scattered across YouTube, Twitch, Discord, this site, and others. Hopefully you find what you need!

That's all for now. Please feel free to post questions below, or reach out to any active runner directly. Everyone is very helpful and friendly. Some of us will be happy to personally coach you, or help you plan a route.

Best of luck!

The fastest runs we have in the boards are not very grindy, as you put it. For a good time, you have to always be moving. The run is definitely all about the routing, with little emphasis on glitches. I'd suggest watching one of the quicker ones, when you have time!

The glitches and skips we do use are minor, such as skipping miniboss cutscenes by looking away (lol yep), and hitting certain main quest timings to minimize NPC interaction.

Tell us more about the Dren glitch! Sounds interesting!

It's been a busy month or so of Titan Soulsing for many! As I haven't heard anything about reset% I did indeed close the reset% 100% category.

As for the reset% any% category, there was one submitted run. I tried doing a run myself, and beat the time. Ultimately, I've made the decision to close the category.

If anyone wanted to bring back a category that used hard resets, then I think the only "fair" solution would be to measure by platform using igt, to eliminate the reboot time differences, but it would retain the lustre of really low times (sub10 igt isn't hard).

For now and going forward, hard resets are banned completely.

What about adding hardmode no-roll?

I'd post a time.

Anyone else?

It's been a year.

I am in favour of banning hard-quits. Like I said, it's been a whole year since the category was split off, and no one has posted any reset% run since then.

Since then, we have also developed a high-risk high-reward ¤in-game¤ way of skipping the animation with the Risky Skip. I think removing the reset% categories would help tidy up the leaderboards.

I've tried it and it's a little buggy still, but I'm already using it to practice any% Hard No-Roll bosses. No problems so far except that it crashes when entering some of the doors.

It looks great so far. Really looking forward to updates.

Some QoL suggestions: -Making the warp to the hub world 1 roll away from the beginning spawn. -Making it easy to travel up the stairs in the hub world (maybe put a downward staircase? or a path to roll up the middle?) -Adding some nice relaxing elevator music. -There might be other ways to logically spread out the bosses around the hub-world rather than rows. I'll send you a mock-up when I see you online next.

Visual suggestion: Making a "doormat" floor tile for each door that matches the theme of the respective boss's arena! It'll look like the arena is flowing out or peeking out into the hub world.

It might be possible to do everything on the tutorial map, right below the spawn. Here's how I see it: [big] Suggestion: 1-map solution[/big] [small]When you start the game, everything looks normal except you see a subtle arrow pointing down. You roll downward instead of up, and invisible stairs take you (through a one-way wall maybe) to an area just out of sight of the spawn point. There you see an arrangement of the 20 doors cleverly laid out, and unlit lights (taken from the save points and linked to that boss's death) above each one. The doors lead to vanilla maps, and the quickest way back to the hub is to save and quit. Overworld bosses like Goliath and Stratus are a bit trickier to do this way since the portal doors can only lead to the nearest door to them. [/small] You could also try duplicating the overworld boss arenas and putting them off to the side on the main tutorial map as well, but I can imagine that getting very buggy, or making the map file extra large and slow. Might be worth a shot.

Can't wait to do boss-rush races :P

Tam's: great find. I think we can forfeit the stone as long as we can still hit level 5 after Wyl's lockpick quest in Rathir.

Another idea, we could just forego Tam's altogether and get the other location if it's close by. Could be worth a look.

In the cradle of summer, the fae yoga session there is very good for exp but I'm almost certain they never drop anything, let alone Essence of Fate, even in Reckoning mode. I have used this spot for backup exp if I get a bad spawn like brownies outside of Emaire 1. The lodestone and "The Deep Slumber" location discovery provide even more exp.

I have some ideas about the Windstones too.

Right now we do Gloam, Tam, Helm, Emaire. What if we instead did Emaire, Tam, Helm, Gloam?

At the Emaire stone, if you are short on fate you can kill the small enemies on the way there. Then, Reckoning gets us two hunters and two lanaeshes, and maybe whatever else spawns there.

At the Tam's windstone, if we travel to the cave instead of to Tam's, there are some kill options en route to the bell.

Then if we are still behind on exp or essence for whatever reason, on the final windstone at Gloam it's possible to lure enemies (Bolgans sometimes spawn nearby) to Reckon them too.

No. Not on a run, anyway.

The game files or data are not allowed to be modified in any way other than through playing the game.

However, if you wish to change the graphics or sound for the purpose of __ practicing __ the skip, I encourage you to do so if it helps you learn the timing! I did that when I was trying to figure out how it worked and how unreliable it is. Just be sure to take all precautions and never upload a run that has or appears to have modified game files.

__Something most of us already do: __ When you discover a location, it is sometimes faster to immediately open the map and fast-travel to it. This is often faster than just running to it. These moments are the perfect time to go and get Ysa buffs, since we're fast-traveling anyway! Here are a few (not all, there are probably more) where we can do it. Cair Nyralim, Rathir, Emaire (possibly), Adessa, Mel Senshir, Camp Ariad (possibly), Bhaile.

Here's a new one that no one does yet: If you go and discover Mel Senshir -right- after Urul Tusk, you can skip Tilera's Rathir dialogue because she is still at Urul Tusk (you are still able to go and convince Elund, and get to Mel Senshir without talking to Tilera in Rathir). Then, once you discover Mel Senshir, just warp to Rundamir and continue to Detyre as usual. You are now able to squeeze in a Mel Senshir trip for early EDP at your convenience... after Saltwell, or right before Octienne, whenever you like. So we essentially do the Rathir-Ferry-Mel Senshir stuff earlier in the run, which we have to do anyway. This saves time because we skip Tilera's dialogue, and it gives us a chance to do the fast travel exploit at Mel Senshir, and it gives us the chance to get early access to the weapons seller there if you have the cash, which can speed up Octienne etc.

This one I think saves a few seconds: As soon as you get to Dannestar island, run toward the tower door. That hits the door unlock trigger timing early. It also lets the Laz group up behind you so that you can kill them easier. By the time you kill them, the tower door will be unlocked without any need to wait for Alyn.

Traveling to Starcamp to run to Haxhi is about 5-7 seconds faster than traveling to St. Eadric's Mission, depending on your load times.

If you're interested in maybe buying a cheaper weapon from a merchant, to replace the EDP dagger route you could check out Rathir, Whitestone, and Odi's Camp. Merchants there sell mid-late-game weapons. None are too far off the beaten path.

If you're looking for good ideas for a completely new route, there are some wiki pages on unique items. They are full of flawed information but it's a good starting point.

I just tried, and it was 35 damage. I was level 7 I think. Edit: tried it on a run, they were 43 damage. I guess I was level 8.

As they are a quest item, you can't sell them until you persuade the quest giver to let you keep them (~80% chance.)

If you get EDP earlier though with some minor optimization, you could justify a S&S. Especially in our route where we go to Dellach fairly late.

Hey everyone, I was hoping to get a brainstorm and discussion going on [big]small[/big] ideas and tricks and tips. Routing is daunting and tough, and that’s a whole other beast. This topic is about the little things! Since the most optimized route will try to maximize gold, fate, experience, while minimizing time, share what you think might help

I’ll get us started. :) - In the Tutorial, you can skip the triggered Big Spider spawn by turning the camera away from where it spawns, i.e. back toward the way you came. Rolling seems to help, for me. There might be other cases where if you don’t look at where something spawns, it won’t trigger but I haven’t looked that hard. :) - The third Lore stone in Erathell (the one after leaving Ayten and going around the bend), normally we go out of our way to avoid triggering a fight. However, don’t have to take the long way around. The fight triggers if you run between the two boulders there, so just avoid running between the two boulders. :) - Discovering Rundamir (near Cair Nyralim) makes the run to Detyre later a bit quicker. If you’re willing to sacrifice a second overall, you can also pick up two stones! As a bonus, there’s an additional location on the way so you get more exp from discovering it. It's called Aodh, and Aodh is the closest warp to Ysa once you unlock it. :) - You can get a 24k-gold ring from Elund, before you go to the siege of Mel Senshir. You just need to persuade him. It has a decent success rate of about 50%, so you can either save the game beforehand, go for the risk, or use a seduction potion before speaking with him (even if you’re male). :) - If you’re just short on gold and you do the Siege and want to purchase items or weapons after, you can tell the NPC right after the siege that Tilera ran like a coward (lie), you’ll get two random items that you can sell, instead of one. :) - In the game options, you can map the run button to the left stick click. This might help avoid accidental action button presses, that could slow you down by talking to NPCs (I’m looking at you Alyn).

Once we get going, we can start to build a knowledge base, use these to perfect routes and get the time down. Or we could consolidate them into a guide for players who want to learn. Onward, on the path toward optimization and a slightly shorter run!

@Zeffers: Thank you for taking the time to reply. My arguments are not ironclad, and I think we have some common ground.

First, for the record, I run it on an HDD with a controller. My PC is pretty decent but getting old. It runs smoothly and I have the graphics settings on normal or high. So I'm not seeking any advantage through technical differences, despite the fact that I brought them up.

Also, yes, do come back to this game! If not now, then when you’re less busy with other things. We not only need to keep this rivalry going, but also want more people streaming the game and gathering interest.

[small](Speaking of interest, I find it very interesting that for FFXIII, a downloadable that everyone has (or has access to) is specifically not included in the route. I’m not familiar with Lightning Returns, so thanks for bringing up that interesting precedent. Why is that particular not considered the same as a patch? In almost every game I know, speedrunners use the fastest patch that was ever officially released. The first example I thought of is BL2 (the community provides the optimal patch, version 1.1, because is the fastest). It’s available to everyone. See also OoT (http://zeldaspeedruns.com/oot/generalknowledge/version-differences) – different versions are faster for different categories, but they are NOT available to everyone without some inherent cost. Yet this is acceptable, in one of the biggest speedgames. So that’s why it’s interesting that the DLC available to everyone in Lightning Returns is not considered a patch. I assume you all just came together, talked it out, and agreed. Glad that’s what’s happening here. Anyway, back to our discussion about purchasable DLC.)[/small]

“competition cannot exist if people decide to single-handedly define a category for themselves… competition cannot be had solely based on people doing what they want.” If this is directed at me, I understand your perception, but I find it’s an unfair assumption regarding my intent. I tried to contact the members of the community, including yourself, about the DLC chest. I did not make a solo decision to just disregard the status quo. I cleared it with one of our mods, and the suggestion given to me was to run the game with it to specifically challenge the status quo.

“Think of professional sports, why are steroids banned, or blood doping which Lance Armstrong lost his titles to?” There is no one sole reason why (some) performance enhancing drugs are banned. I see that you’re trying to argue that they are banned because they are not available to everyone. There are also health & safety considerations, and social considerations, like whether role models should be encouraging young children to take performance enhancers. I don’t think the DLC chest is analogous to drugs that are against the rules. First, there were no rules about the DLC – in fact on the run submission page it only asks that I disclose that the DLC was used, so it’s not like they were simply forgotten. Second, performance enhancing drugs are proven to be effective at improving an athlete in at least some aspects. Our infamous DLC chest is not proven to effectively improve the run (at least not in the way I used it – more on that later). I would say it is more akin to a hockey player on a team using a composite stick when everyone else is using wood. It’s a foray into new grounds, not specifically regulated when it was first introduced, and any advantage it gives is unclear (it’s more flexible but not as hard). It’s also more expensive, but not prohibitively so. This, in my opinion, is a much better analogy if we want to think of it as a comparison with sports.

“DLC changes the core structure of the internal playability of the game, regardless of how small or large, it changes the state of the game, you cannot suggest DLC has no impact, because that is absurd.” In fact I can, and do. I acknowledge that there is POTENTIAL impact, I see that clearly, and I think that is where you should focus your arguments. However, on my submitted run that uses DLC, the only measurable impact it had was a negative one, as I will try to demonstrate at the end of this post.

“…One other point is that the DLC items you equip, ‘Running Man’ have stats on them and provide bonuses, you also sell a lot of the DLC items you do not use, thus providing gold and other advantages the core game does not provide. So how, pray-tell does the DLC not impact the run, or alter the internal definition of what you are able to do in game? “ You bring up two points here: The gold gained from selling the DLC items I didn’t use, and the bonus stats given by the armor I use. I will also illustrate this further down.

“And being the one using the DLC, the burden of proof rests on your shoulders to provide proof of the impact, lack of impact, advantage, disadvantage, and anything else to justify and suggest DLC should be apart of, and/or define the Any% category thereof. You presented a run with DLC, you must prove why it should be acceptable.” I will include evidence at the bottom of this post.

“…even if the DLC was free, or included like the Lightning Returns example I gave, that is not the issue. Cost is not relevant, definition of a fair speedrun for competition is. Cost does not trump this, nor does cost justify a re-definition of a category because it's easily accessible DLC for 4.99. Or on sale you can get the game and DLC for less than the cost of the game.“ Okay. We agree that the cost is immaterial. Some common ground :)

“Incorrect, Any% is defined as completing a game as fast as possible under Any% within the game, meaning you complete the game with less than 100% completion as determined by the game itself internally. Any% is not defined by the peripheral items used, it simply means you beat the game with less than 100% of the in-game requirements for 100% completion, even if the game does not have a 100% completion defined, it is still any% of completion used to beat the game.“ I believe you are incorrect here. Here are some definitions. Zeldaspeedruns: “This category aims for fastest completion in a single sitting with no restrictions.” Speedsouls: “There are no added restrictions on how the player completes the game, they must simply start a new character and beat the final boss, Gwyn, as quickly as they can.” Speedrunslive: “A run with no additional completion requirements; anything goes. The "default" category for speedrunning a game” There is nothing about it having to be less than 100% -- an any% route can indeed also be 100%, although I can think of no examples where that’s the case except one megaman game. The completion is not determined by the game itself internally, it is most often defined by the community. See the above sources for their 100% definitions and you’ll also see that they are not internally defined but community defined.

“False. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, using a logical fallacy to determine an outcome, or suggest we do not have the luxury, therefore we most not seperate or ban DLC is foolish. This also could be considered a measure of a false dilemma and circular reasoning. Not to be rude here, but you need a better argument, because your conclusion is false, a does not cause b. Avoiding a does not mean b is avoided outright. “ I don’t really follow you here. I’m just saying if we split the boards, they will look even emptier – this would be an unfortunate side-effect. Still, given the choice I prefer separating the boards over banning DLC, because if we ban DLC, you’re excluding my run. Plus, in the future, if someone wants to run the game and they want to use the DLC, why should we try to stomp out their interest in the boards? I used the DLC because it was there for me and it looked cool and it fit with my theme that I’m a running man doing a three hour marathon run through the woods. Sure, before I researched what it did, I thought maybe it would be faster, so I took verifiable steps to contact you and our mods and Aphox and Koinu and Susan for the purpose of asking about the chest items. As it turns out, it’s only potentially faster or potentially safer. My run should not and shall not be disqualified, so the remaining options I can abide by are to split the boards or keep a tag in the run that displays whether or not the DLC was used. On timing, I tried to stick with your timing scheme. Any deviation you see there is accidental. I disagreed with it, as the last required input is about 5 seconds before we complete the A-mash circle (because you don’t have to mash). What I did was verbally call out the time of my last required input, and then I split where you split for the “official” time. Anyway, we can discuss split timing in another topic.

Okay so… Here is my evidence, since you requested some proof:

GOLD GAINED

1. It took 4.5 extra seconds to pick up items from the chest.
2. It took 28 extra seconds to sell the items from the chest to a merchant we stand near anyway, which is required for inventory space.
3. Selling the items at 3 Mercantile, I obtained: (3844weps+426 shields+2811armor) = 7081 gold
4. Had I sold and not equipped The Running Man armor and The Moon shield at that time, they would have gotten me 1955 extra gold, so an “advantage” of 9036 gold. So that’s an investment of 32.5 seconds, for an incidental gain of 7081 gold on my run. The Electrifying Daggers of Precision (EDP) cost is 73,225. On my run, at Mel Senshir, after selling the random stuff I picked up, I end up at 61,237 gold. (It would be 54,156 had I not sold the DLC) I then sell Elund’s Ring for 24,829. Without DLC I would then be at 78,985. That is well above the EDP cost of 73,225. Therefore, the gold I obtained when selling the DLC had no impact on my run. Whether it might have an impact on a future run, well, I can see how we would want to manage that. So there’s a potential for an advantage. In this particular case, however, it cost me 32.5 seconds for no benefit. BONUS STATS The armor I used gives: some defense, some resistances, and critical hit damage (not critical chance, as Eagle was saying). The wiki does not list the correct stats for when you pick it up, as it supposedly scales in Defense based on the level you are when you install the DLC. Since I got the Game of the Year edition or whatever, I was level 0. So yeah, if it scales, I can see a much greater potential for an impact on the run. Maybe it’s worth exploring to see how much it scaled if I were to reinstall the DLC. So, some defense, some crit damage. Those are the bonus stats. This is where it becomes much harder to prove a negative. A fuzzy math approach: The save file for my most recent run (not the one that uses DLC, unfortunately) shows in the stats that I have hit 250 crits. Anecdotally, for most of the run I one-shot or two-shot everything, especially with the greatsword route. So a crit might save a sword swing, and it might not. Assuming every enemy dies in 2 swings (because many die in one swing, and a few die in more than two), then there’s a 50% chance that a crit saves me a sword swing. So that’s 125 time-saving crits. I will arbitrarily subtract 25 time-saving crits for cases when I swing at an enemy’s dead body anyway following a crit. Yeah I know it’s fuzzy, but instead of spending three hours going over my run and counting the number of times a crit saves me a swordswing, let’s say it’s a hundred. Now, how does 12+5+8+5+5+10% crit damage help? Let’s assume they stack additively (a generous assumption in your favor). So 45% bonus crit damage with melee. If I was critting for +400 damage before, then with the 45% bonus I’m critting for +580 damage. If I hit 100 time-saving crits, would 180 bonus damage on a crit significantly decrease my number of sword swings required? I don’t think so. I’m not sure. I could do some more fuzzy math, but honestly I don’t think it would convince you. A more general approach: On regular enemies, a crit is a kill, with or without the armor. On bosses, a crit is a bigger chunk of damage. Suppose I hit two crits on each boss. Over those two crits, the bonus damage probably saves me one swing. Since each swing takes a second or less, and there are fewer than 30 bosses in the game, then I save less than 30 seconds thanks to the increased crit damage. Sure, I’ve made some reasonable assumptions to arrive at this conclusion. But to be sure, I’d have to go over the run in detail. I’d rather spend three hours (or more) doing other things, like running the game. An empirical approach: I’ve run the game without the armor. It was faster. Sure, there are other factors, but even a shallow observation of the run is enough to see that crit damage was not a time-saving factor. The run was just verified by the way.

So where do we go from here? Regardless of whether you accept my evidence, I think we both agree that there is definitely a potential that someone using DLC can gain a time or RNG advantage over someone who is not. I maintain that it was not a clear and present advantage on my DLC run. I am not opposed to creating a separate board for runs that use or require the use of DLC, on that basis.

Unless we ban loading safety saves, or ban dying (lol) then that presents perhaps the biggest problem.

Often, in-game timer is simply based on frame count, and can slow down and speed up depending on what you're doing or if you're loading, etc. And if the in-game timer is even 0.1% off, that adds up over the course of three hours.

Plus, the timer does seem to continue during load screens from some preliminary testing.

So I also think we should continue using RTA.

If we wanted to take a step toward balancing PC system to system, then an autosplitter that pauses during load times could be interesting... but at this point it's not feasible unless one of you knows someone who will do it.

I will try to convince you not to change your mind but to broaden the discussion, and find the best course forward.

I can only assume that the topic has arisen due to a recently submitted and verified run. I have the DLC installed. In either case I'm glad that there are others who still care about the run, no matter whether you have run the game recently or at all.

What do we want for the future of this speedrun? A decision such as this one shouldn't be taken in haste.

@zefferss, you and I both have a stake in this, obviously. I would love to chat it out more with you, just like how we discussed the route before I began running the game. From the timing of your response here as well as Eagle's, I think I assume you watched the run :) I hope you saw all of it. I don't think the DLC made much of a difference if any, but that remains to be examined. My run was very much inspired by yours. I recognize that you put at least as much time into the game as I have, and probably more. @Susan, last we spoke you said you had not had time to watch any runs and that you don't plan on streaming it anymore. I'm glad your interest is rekindled, and if you did end up watching more runs for route ideas, let us know what you think!

I would love to hear from Velcrow_ and Aphox, as they both also have a vested interest.

Here are my thoughts.

I think we should have a discussion and not make assumptions about about what consists of an advantage, and what consists of an unfair advantage. I don’t think anyone has established that there’s a measurable difference, and if so, what that difference is. Maybe we should start with that. [big]Let’s make that a priority[/big].

Then further to that discussion we can come up with a way to proceed.

Here is my position: We should do what’s best for the speedrun. That includes a balancing act between fairness and competitiveness. We should also look at some precedent that has been set in games with similar situations, and assess how it works for them.

[big]On fairness:[/big]

It is obvious that different versions of the same game can offer different advantages over one another. Depending on the game, there can be minor or significant differences that can arise from varying platforms, game version, game region, etc. Here are a few more obscure examples: the resolution you play on, the language, or whether the game is installed on a HDD or an SSD or even a RAMdrive. There are differences we can control, and many that we can’t.

Which of these advantages are fair, and which are unfair? It can be a pretty subjective thing. Even still, some unfair advantages are sometimes permissible. As a direct example, not everyone who wants to run a game can afford the fastest and most optimal platform. Moreover, not everyone who runs a PC game can afford to install it on an SSD. We can all agree that an SSD installation would provide a significant advantage, unfair or otherwise. But we don’t control that, except through rules that are more or less enforceable. Some games ban "unfair" glitches, for instance. Others create their own categories.

Using a mouse and keyboard provides an advantage. Without quantifying how much of a difference it makes, at least I can say that I've tried both. The mouse is definitely faster for leveling up and fast travel. The keyboard is faster for accessing the menu and for using abilities.

There’s a presumption that those who care most about running the game in the fastest possible way have no choice but to pony up. I think this precludes the cost argument. How does an SSD or a mechanical keyboard and laser mouse compare to a readily available inexpensive DLC pack? ($5 Canadian, I think $4 USD? Frankly, I'm surprised that you guys don't already have it, as I know that at some point you were all deeply connected to this game) We can't necessarily know how they compare without actually measuring or at the very least estimating the time difference each makes.

(If you're still not convinced that price should not be a factor, consider this: I bought the game with all DLC on sale for less than the "base" price of the "base" game. I'm not throwing around cash for the sake of an advantage--I spent less. I love this game enough that I'd buy anyone with a completed RTA the DLC just so you guys can play around with it.)

It is obvious that we shouldn't create separate categories for SSD vs. HDD, Mouse+Keys vs. Controller, Steam vs. Origin. There will be hardware and software differences. It's up to the runners to select the fastest way. That's how "any%" works.

[big]...Which brings us to competitiveness.[/big]

I can't speak for all of us, but part of why I speedrun is competition against my own time, as well as competition against others. Therefore, in my opinion, we should keep an emphasis on competitiveness. If our goal is to attract more potential runners to the game, then we can do so by offering a range of competition for people with all versions and all platforms.

As mentioned, no speedrun is absolutely a 100% level playing field. The same goes with any race, really, and any sport. There will always be differences, and that's all part of competition. That's the spirit of it all. It's exciting to watch a taller basketball player get a slam dunk over a shorter one. It's even more exciting to watch an underfunded underdog team like Iceland go so far in their first ever Euro cup appearance. I digress, but I'm just trying to illustrate that competition isn't always about a mirror match. It would be interesting if we calculated the DLC to give, say, an X second advantage, and then watch someone without it beat the DLC record by X seconds.

I speak from experience with my other speedgame, Titan Souls. I held the fastest time on PC for many months, but due to version differences, the PS4 version is faster. After much (much much) discussion before I began running the game there, the leaderboards there are not split. I felt I was able to compete despite not having the fastest version, and I'm now a part of that happy, growing community.

That should be our goal.

In a similar vein, Dark Souls, which is an extremely competitive speedgame, does not separate the boards based on platform (despite there being some key differences) or based on what items they pick up (again, big differences, especially regarding RNG). That game also has close to 150 runners with a submitted time. They have the option to make many many subcategories, but they elected not to. (It does separate out Kiln Skip, as that route is immensely different enough to be considered a different category altogether.)

We don't have that luxury. Although a number of games do this, if we separated the leaderboards into "Any%" and "Any% No DLC" categories, there would be only one run in one category, and two runs in another. That's a big step backwards for healthy competition, I think. Still, it would be a much better solution than outright banning DLC from runs. If we did that, I think you'd be digging the grave for this speedgame. That is not an option.

In conclusion, I just want to reiterate that I have grown to love this speedrun and I want what's best for it. I'm not here to overcast our humble little 3-run leaderboard parade and I'm not here to change the rules of the game and pull an iQue. We all have a horse in this race.

The DLC might be an advantage. That hasn't been shown yet. Still, it might. It's certainly not a [big]big[/big] advantage, if there is one. I don't think it's an "unfair" advantage either. I don't use any of the weapons and I sell the stuff--which made no difference in my gold gain in my posted run.

I know it's a long run and it's the middle of the week, (and a long weekend for us Canadians), and I appreciate that you guys might not have the time to put a lot more thought into it, or to get out timers and calculators and work out exactly what the difference is.

This is a critical moment. Let's support each other through it. I know I've said a lot, just think it through.

Please respond with your thoughts, and if you don't know where to start, then research the DLC, think about how it could measurably affect the run. Or try to find other games with a similar situation that we can look to for examples.

Anyone have a Vita? What's the game like there?

***edit: no one has it lol ***