Dino Crisis 2 Forum  /  Gap between PSP and Emu & RTA vs IGT
  NazzarenoNazzareno
(edited: )

Hi, everyone. Long post ahead. Please, do not come up with collateral topics for the sake of keeping it to the points mentioned in the title.
So, I know that If_And_While and Dimension_Bomber have been talking about gaps between PS1 and PS2 in other instances and probably about these topic as well, but straight to point: why no one ever noticed that huge gap between the times on PSP and Emulator?
Assuming that IGT on the PS version (contrarily to PC version) is reliable (and it's reliable, since we are using it on the console category), assuming that While, Dimension and Deadhunter (which are the only ones with a PSP time on the leaderboards) have comparable PSPs, assuming that everyone else used pretty much the same emulator, you can see that the difference between PSP RTA and PSP IGT is around 4 minutes, while the difference between Emu RTA and Emu IGT is around 6 minutes, a little more in some instances (don't mind my current run. I fixed the lag and I'm submitting a lagless run right now, with a RTA-IGT difference of almost 6:30 minutes).
From a very quick look at While's run, the first major difference I can see is the much faster loading times between camera angles and possibly on the door transitions, which I can see heavily affecting the run overall. DeepStackDave's run, on Emu, seems close to the loading speed I get on Emu. To me, this very quick and empirical comparison and the pretty solid gap in the times are enough to ask, as While did repeatedly, to split between at least PSP and Emu (I'm ignoring PS3 because I don't have experience on that and there is only a very old run on Hard mode, so not enough data, but the RTA-IGT difference in that case is ridiculously huge). If anyone wants a more consistent proof of the PSP-Emu gap, I'll do my best to gather recordings of the game running on the two platforms and make a comparison video.
Since I've never paid a lot of attention to the Emu leaderboard, I kind of underestimated the issues claimed by While and Dimension, but now that I did a couple of runs myself I have to agree with them. The fact that the competition is still limited to a few people is an argument I understand against spawning a ton of categories, but in this very case I see the Emu category as unfair. No one can get even just third place without a PSP, and this takes me to the second point.
RTA rules on PC because the IGT there is messed up. Fine.
IGT rules on console because the IGT on the PS version is working great.
Why doesn't IGT rule on Emu, where we are literally emulating the version with the nicely working timer? Is the IGT getting broken across different platforms? If it is, any real proof? Because right now what I see is that RTA is unfair against anything different from a PSP and it is still being used as ruling time. Moreover, I can see a consistency between Emu IGTs and PSP IGTs against the huge gap between RTAs.
So, to recap, my point is that PSP/Emu/PSN category cannot be ruled by RTA because the game runs faster on PSP (or slower on anything else, I don't really care). I find it a quite important topic, now that we have some new runners on every platform, and unless someone gets world record with an emulator, I'm considering it impossible. So here are the solutions I can see:
- Splitting between PSP category and Emu category and keeping RTA as ruling time (but again, why not IGT? It would be even better, if the categories were split)
- Keeping everything together but using IGT as ruling time
- Doing more research on newer/different emulators to see if there is a setup that can get results significantly closer to PSP (but this takes time and, in the meantime, runners like DeepStackDave will have to deal with an unreachable third place, which I find sligthly sad)
- Buy a freaking PSP, everyone

Thank you for your attention.

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  666Deadhunter666Deadhunter

We can't rule some categories by RTA and some others by IGT.
At the beginning, the leaderboard was ruled by IGT but with many runs on PC version, it was decided to rule by RTA.
So it was said many times that you should consider IGT the only reference for the leaderboard, even if this one is ruled by IGT.
If we put the full leaderboard in IGT so PC version (with the most of runs) will not be accurate anymore. We can't satisfied everyone until SDC do something.
No split between Emu and PSP because IGT is the same AND PSP is an emulated version like the PS3 (both are PSN versions)

 
  RapixOnGamingRapixOnGaming
(edited: )

@666Deadhunter666Deadhunter The only way to solve this is separating EMU from PSN (PSP,PS3,PSVita,PSTV), so that PSN would be ruled out by IGT just like the "PS" category. All PSN runs would have a duplicated identical time on IGT and RTA just like in the "PS" category. I don't think you can argue this is a problem for Console runners. Everyone would be fine with it.
Doing that Emu would be alone, which would make everyone happy among Emu runners as well. Because that category would be ruled by RTA just like the PC category.
It's a win win situation. Everyone's happy.

This must be the only leaderboard where official console emulation (PSN) is lamped together with PC Emulation of another console PS1. This doesn't satisfy anyone in either worlds.

Shouldn't this at least be voted by the community?

Personally I bought a PSTV to run Dino Crisis 2 among other games. I don't understand why the timing for me for this game should be RTA when this game has an accurate IGT. I should submit the run with the IGT in both RTA and IGT fields just like PS runners do.

DeepStackDaveDeepStackDave, VendettavicVendettavic and xtra2Ezxtra2Ez like this. 
  NazzarenoNazzareno

Hold on, so the problem is that the website pretends all categories of a single game to be ruled by the same time, @666Deadhunter666Deadhunter? I wasn't aware of that. I find it weird. Could we do anything, as a community, to bring our problem to the moderators' attention?

 
  666Deadhunter666Deadhunter

Yeah... that sucks.
It was asked many times to web dev. Idw how much it's difficult to do that but I think we can wait for a loooong time.

 
  NazzarenoNazzareno

Okay, now the problem shifts to the website. Couldn't we cheat and make the RTA match the IGT, like it is done on console if I'm not wrong?

 
  MASHMASH

suggestion is to make both times tracked but have the option to leave the other filled not shown with no times and state that submissions should be filled out according to which category/platform the submission belongs to. And yeah dealing with the backend of the design and finding work arounds has been a pain but its do able.

NazzarenoNazzareno likes this. 
  RapixOnGamingRapixOnGaming
(edited: )

Guys you are literally trying to kill an ant with a bazooka. The solution is a low hanging fruit.
Just separate PSN (PSP,PS3,Vita,PSTV) from PS Emu and you solve 99% of the problems.
It is literally one click ,and it makes every runner happy, but the moderator apparently. No runner has been against this idea so far.
In that category you are comparing oranges with screwdrivers.

This discussion has been going on for a long time now as well, between Discord posts and Forum threads. The mods of this game are breaking every rule of the site.

In referring to the site rules here:
Rule n.1:
""Leaderboards should be viewed as owned by the community and curated by the moderators. A user who requests a leaderboard does not own the leaderboard.""

Rule n.5:
""The users moderating a game should represent the consensus of the players of the game. If it is evident that moderators are not representing consensus among runners, site staff may change moderation.""

Additionally one of the two moderators never run this game. You are typically allowed to be mod only if there is no other users available.
Rule n.6:
""Moderators should typically speedrun the game, or at a minimum be heavily involved with the community.""

You have been rejecting users asking to be moderator while the rules state the follow:
Rule n.7:
""Leaderboards should aim to have at least 3 active moderators if qualified people are available.""

As I see it, this issue should be solved democratically with a vote. And you need to add other moderators among active users/runners that request to be one.

Question n.1:
"Should PSN be separated from Emu? Yes or No"
Question n.2:
"Should PS Emu be ruled by RTA or IGT?"

 
  NazzarenoNazzareno

I agree with @RapixOnGamingRapixOnGaming, but I don't want this to be an attack against a moderator. I personally don't have problems with the mods and I'm sure we can come up with a satisfying solution without starting a fight.
@666Deadhunter666Deadhunter, you said "No split between Emu and PSP because IGT is the same AND PSP is an emulated version like the PS3 (both are PSN versions)". I would agree with you if IGT was ruling the leaderboard. Right now it doesn't matter at all, so we are back at either requesting a change in how the website handles the ruling times or cheating and putting IGT as both IGT and RTA. No split is fine, in this case, but are we all agreeing on the fact that RTA between at least PSP and Emu is not comparable? It seems like we are just working around the core issue without never addressing it directly.

 
  666Deadhunter666Deadhunter
(edited: )

The decision to rule the leaderboard by RTA was taken with moderators and community because of the crappy PC version.
If we come back to IGT I don't want that PC runners come to cry... (PC is the category with most runs).
I can't satisfied everyone !

btw : I don't care about Discord or what decisions can be taken on. i'm not on this Discord and all decisions are taken HERE where everyone can see it. And the community is the runners, I only listen to them.

 
  NazzarenoNazzareno

The point is not having IGT for everything but having it for what CAN be ruled by IGT. We are all okay about the IGT being broken on PC and that's not part of this problem.
We do have to be all satisfied. PC version has IGT problem? We rule it with RTA. We want to keep PSP, Emu and PSN together despite RTA being not consisten across them? We rule them with IGT. The website is not evolved enough to contemplate different timing for different categories of the same game? We ask for a change.

 
  RapixOnGamingRapixOnGaming

@666Deadhunter666Deadhunter nobody is saying to change PC or the RTA field as main field of sorting.
If we separate PSN out of Emu, we can overwrite the RTA times with IGT. Easy doing. Just like on "PS".
Same can be done with Emu if community prefers IGT also for Emu.

 
  666Deadhunter666Deadhunter

you did not undestand that it's IMPOSSIBLE ! I can't put some categories in RTA and others in IGT. It's all or nothing !
@NazzarenoNazzareno : yes PC IGT is fuck up that's why the game is timed by RTA. But the PC version is crappy in many points, so much bugs not fixed so...

 
  RapixOnGamingRapixOnGaming
(edited: )

Man what's your problem? maybe you don't know you can change the run on the board?? It is sufficient that you go in every single run in the Emu board copy and paste the time of IGT field in the RTA field. It's about 18 copy and paste. It takes 2 minutes. @666Deadhunter666Deadhunter. Everything remains timed by RTA, but PS, Emu and PSN have the IGT duplicated over the RTA time field.

Is it clear now?

 
  NazzarenoNazzareno

So we ask for the feature. Ignoring the problem doesn't solve it. I mean, I'm fine, I prefer PC, RTA is on my side, PC version works perfectly for me because I'm lucky enough, but what about anyone willing to get a time on Emu? We just leave it as it is, with PSP inevitably superior? Just ban Emulator and PS3 and save yourself the time to review the runs, because they don't matter.

 
  RapixOnGamingRapixOnGaming

@NazzarenoNazzareno that is not impossible. It is really easy to do. Deadhunter either doesn't know how to do it or doesn't want to do it. Which takes me to the other point made above. Add other moderators! With more experience with speedrun.com and with the will to try various emulators, test and decide what's best and stable.

 
  666Deadhunter666Deadhunter

man, I'm moderating this leadearboard since 6+ years...
I don't have lessons to take from someone who just don't know the game, the problems with the different versions and who don't have any run here.
Start running then talk.

 
  NazzarenoNazzareno
(edited: )

@RapixOnGamingRapixOnGaming, I'm perfectly aware that you can overwrite the RTA with IGT manually. I wrote it several times before in the thread. It is not a matter of having a more experienced moderator, especially because we already have two experienced mods.
@666Deadhunter666Deadhunter, I run the game, therefore I talk. The situation I see is that you are not willing to change anything in how the leaderboards (specifically the Emu one, let's ignore the others) are working. Is that correct? Why? Is everything all right with Emu category, right now?

 
  RapixOnGamingRapixOnGaming
(edited: )

@NazzarenoNazzareno you are aware yes, but Deadhunter doesn't seem to be aware since he said it is impossible to do. Or doesn't want to without saying why.
It is also a matter of having more experienced mods, MisterDodi never run this game and Deadhunter doesn't know how to deal with technical issues, he is not on Discord and he is not willing to test Emulators, see for example the DuckStation that on Parasite Eve 2 was tested and declared best Emu for the game.
@666Deadhunter666Deadhunter I haven't run this game yet yes, but I can talk too as a speedrunner that considered running this game and bought a PSTV explicitly for that reason.
As a moderator of other games, I can help you and I understand the complications and limits of the board. This issue doesn't have tech limits or problems. I have explained you how to do it. It takes 2 minutes. Just to make it clear, I'm not saying I want to be mod or I know this game more than you do. Other runners of this game have asked to be mod and you said no. You are acting as a ruler not as a moderator.

 
  VendettavicVendettavic
(edited: )

Well as a PC runner i´ll cast my vote (give my opinnion)

First of all, im grateful to @666Deadhunter666Deadhunter he is the fastest mod i´ve seen in this site (in other games it takes MONTHS to have a run confirmed)

- For the question "Split PSP and other categories"? it doesn´t affect me (for now) but i know that the imposibility of trying a WR is discouraging new runners, so i say, if it´s possible, YES.

- For the question "Rule PC with RTA and the others with IGT" I say, if it´s possible, YES.

- For the question "¿If someone qualified want to be a moderator, should be? I say, why not?.

To end this, i would want to say thank you to everyone who are making this game alive again, runners
of every category and @666Deadhunter666Deadhunter for being there as a diligent mod. We do this for fun so, let´s
keep the spirit 😃

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