Since 99% allows for one segment, are you allowed to retry segment 2 from where you left off in segment 1, or do all attempts of segment 2 collectively count toward real time completion?

I am reading it as failing the segment 2 requires starting all over again. but it's unclear how that would be enforced outside of requiring attempts be made live and that would be different than the segmented runs. So I wanted to double check.

When I came up with the rule my thinking was you can do infinite attempts at segment 2. Meaning you don't have to reset segment 1. So if you are forever happy with segment 1, you don't ever need to replay it. The reasonbeing we can't know if someone did 1 or 50 attempts at segment 2 so it should be allowed for infinite resets for segment 2.

ohhhhh ok. I can get behind that interpretation. Makes grinding for a good segment one a bit less daunting of a task if nothing else.

I very very strongly disagree @Deathtome. The whole point of allowing a break is so that you don’t have to play for 25-30 hours straight, not to allow you to reset your 2nd segment as many times as you please. I think we need to set a rule for this category specifically that if you choose to do a 2-segment run, your attempts must be streamed. That way we avoid the issue of someone doing multiple attempts at segment 2 and claiming they only did one attempt.

I agree with Lasagna, the two segments are only because it's unhealthy to do it in one segment. You can practice from any save at any time that you want but this is a RTA category, not a segmented one.

The run being streamed live is really the only way to verify that but even then it could be cheated. Could lead to drama later if more than just a few of us run this game.

I am not a mod anymore so it's up to you how you want to handle this. Feels kinda impossible to make sure it's first attempt on segment 2. So my thinking was the real run was the 1 part run and easy mode was 2 part runs where you can be free to find fastest way to beat it like a segmented run but with only 2 parts. More so to find out what the best strategies were but probably will only help for farming additions to 99. I am glad someone brought it up so we got clarification before it was a problem. I just explained what I thought when I made the category, but it will be a nightmare to know if 2nd segment is first try. It's sad but someone could have done 2 parts offline and just stream it over 2 days. So maybe you should talk about how to handle that or maybe allow it as a segmented run after all.

One anti-cheat feature could be to show console clock before starting part 1 (if live streamed this would be an easy verification). For offline runs it would also help but someone could put +1 month and submit 1 month later. For live runs it seems fine.

I agree with Lasagnaaammm and Blackdeathdoom. I see this category not as a segmented run but RTA with a break and going by that you only get one attempt at part 2.

Now I don't know how PS2 clock works but I know for other consoles that if the clock battery dies then it would reset the clock every boot so that idea could work but if that battery dies then it is useless. Also it is very easy to set that clock to whatever you want.

Implying that the run will be live streamed they enter the PS2s system clock and add the date and time to that day should be beyond any doubt that the run is done that day. Even if it says 2000-01-01 once booted up you just change it manually to the current date and time before starting. Takes 1 minute and that is one easy way to tell the run is live and not a pre-recorded run. Knowing the time of part 1 limits the abuse time of part 2. Like let's say you start September 1st at 05:00. Then submit whole run at September 3rd it means it's very unlikely that the person has played segment 2 multiple times considering how long the game is. So even if someone tried to cheat it would be minimal time window to do so. Knowing part 1 start time IRL is the only thing that matters and then when entire run is concluded. 48 hours is reasonable or maybe even 72 hours if the person needs a break day in-between the parts. So if someone starts Part 1 on September 1st and submits September 28th... that's pretty suspicious. ;) I think it might work. Only for live runs though that are streamed. Otherwise all can be faked. Shame to not allow offline runs though. That would be the consequence unless someone tells the mods in advance that they will do an offline run and give them a set system clock time to insert manually as start of part 1 'enter 2028 July 3rd'. I guess it would work.

To Offline Runs Only: Asking for a manual system clock time by an admin before doing part 1 AND part 2. I want to do a run, ask an admin what manual time to enter to start part 1 '2027-01-01'. I run it and once I am ready for part 2 I ask for manual date and time again '2029-03-03' then I submit within 24 hours or at least let a mod know the video duration if uploading is going to be delayed. Preferably submitted within 24 hours after part 2 system clock time was given. Remember this is only for offline integrity to allow people to still play with 1 shot at each part.

So as the only person who is on the leaderboard for the emulator-version of the category and the only person currently running on either version of the category, I do want to give my 2 cents. It sounds like there are two things being discussed: If RTA what rules do we change if any to verify as well as whether or not RTA or segment.

Regarding rule changes if RTA w/ break.

I don't think any rule change is necessary. My thought process is that this is a meme category on a game dominated by live runners. It's also a category with 0 competition. I think regarding the clock, people can change the clock. And I don't think the time between runs of the segments being a month would actually be all that suspicious. These segments are long, like each one is longer than any% glitchless-long.

Anyone working full time is not going to be able to do both segments in the same weekend, and given the RNG, it might be a random weekend that actually lands a segment worth continuing as the category gets more optimized. If my latest attempt that got curbstomped at ghost ship went through for instance, I'd not have the time to run segment 2 until the weekend after next. So it actually would have been almost a month. Now, I do all my attempts live, so I mean a live-only solution would work for me. But I'm also kind of coming at this from the angle: no one's gonna come in clear the category without having some runs on a shorter category. Given how tight-knit the community is, a "trust" based system to me seems fine. I also don't know for sure if we ruled out the clock has 0 impact on the game at all. I know there's a an algorithm, but do we know for 100% that the clock has no influence at all on anything? I also want to point we do have an emulator category, so there is already a fair bit of trust that we're even playing the same game, you know? IMO if someone is willing to cheat me out of my meme LoD record by grinding their second segment, they can have it cause they clearly want it more XD but I don't want to speak for everyone in that regard. I was mostly confused regarding the logic employed which is why I pointed it out, rather than wanting a rule change to protect my record or something lol

Also idk how to display the clock in duckstation, so if we do change the rules, can i show my system clock instead or just google the time on browser or something?

Regarding RTA w/ break vs Segmented

I think both are totally valid perspectives. I lean slightly more toward segmented in this instance for a few reasons. I know I'm outvoted, but I want to at least put them out there.

1. The aforementioned trust-based system RTA w/ break has vs just assuming everyone is segmenting. Or disallowing offline runs. It does simplify the issue.

2. I think there's a tradeoff here based on what we think the achievement should be for a high record. This category has a massive amount of RNG, even compared to glitchless. A bad ghost ship, not getting bandit's ring, dragonshield, some of these are massive in terms of timeloss. I think these rng swings are so severe in terms of timeloss, that tricks like getting guard skip or whether or not you need extra shops, slow menus, screwing up your charms, all of these become a less important, as none of these on their own cost more than a minute or two typically.

Segments can taper the effects of big rng swings more than RTA, by making them less important. Which in turn marathoning to get the 30% bandit's ring proc, the 20% dragonshield drop, good ghost ship minigame (your chances of randomly guess the last round with 4 different numbers is ~8.33% on last round) all in one, single continuous run less important. If our goal is to have the "fastest" run be the one most willing to grind these procs in one go, and the grind for that perfect RNG is the accomplishment, then RTA makes more sense. If our goal is having highly optimized routes and well-executed gameplay, segmented makes more sense. To me both of these ideas are equally valid. RTA will require far more resets overall than segmented to get a run, especially as the runs become more optimized, there's no disputing that. Once a run on the leaderboard has bandit's ring, dragonshield, and a very good ghost ship (8.33% chance on the last round to open if all 4 numbers different, or ~24.6% to open within the first 3 attempts). A run with all three happening without segmenting is ~1.4%. If you do one attempt each weekend, on average it would take about 2 years to get a run with all three procs.

Currently no run has even 2 of these proc'd in a submitted run. BDD only got good ghost ship, and my run only had bandit's ring, for the record. The downside to segmenting, is that this incentives grinding the first segment to be just after ghost ship (or before dragonshield), so you can do multiple first segment attempts in one day and plan for a longer segment 2. This would shift the achievement from who's willing to marathon all 3 procs to who's willing to marathon 1 or 2 procs + have really solid gameplay elsewhere. Both are achievements worth celebrating, I just want to acknowledge that incentives of someone actually attempting to optimize the run are shifted from route perfection to rng-farming.

3. Kinda just 2, does anyone want to actually run this knowing that the RNG is what it is? It's hard enough to get people to run Any% Glitchless. Despite BDD clearly having minutes saveable just from cleaning up the outdated route and at least 10-15 mins saveable by getting those aforementioned procs, yet afaik he has no plans on running it. I have at least 25 mins saveable from execution and updated routing as well as 20 mins saveable from those procs, yet I'm only running it because it's a "punishment" for charity. I think that speaks volumes abut the attitude towards it as a category.

Personally, I wouldn't be at all hurt if the category was removed or changed. This is a meme and I don't have all the much pride wrapped up in it. We have all bosses%, so it's not like there's a terrible amount to be gained with it. Part of what draws me to the category when I do run it is how much more of the game you see in a run. Having to pick up the additional good and stardust and stuff is really fun. Who doesn't like the bouquet scene? Seeing more of Bale is so wholesome. It does make it a fun category to stream.

I just figure if our goal is for speedrunners to actually speedrun the category and actually optimize it, we may want to lean toward making it a more palatable category to run in some way, either by segmenting it or doing something else to address the RNG gauntlet nature of it. But I can also just go with the "get good" attitude. It is a JRPG and at some point the RNG is a feature and not a bug of running. I don't want it to come across like I'm complaining just trying to be realistic about the current status of the category. I just personally would be willing to optimize my own run of it if it was segmented, but I wouldn't be willing to spend 2 years rng-fishing. For whatever that is worth.

I do recognize that segments and long runs in general are difficult to mod and I appreciate the civility in discussing it. I'm ultimately fine with what the mods decided. Just let me know what I might have to do differently when I run it.

Ultimately you can run this or any category you want however you want but won't be able to submit to the boards if it doesn't go by the rules. The main goal of speedrunning is having fun and if you want to run segmented as it is more fun for you then I recommend you do it to have more fun. I know multiple people who speedrun regularly but don't ever post to SRC.

As for RTA w/ break vs Segmented I think that I'm more in favor of the current RTA w/ break rules but I would be supportive of adding a separate category for STA (Segmented Time Attack) where you are allowed as many segments as you want. There is another game that has RTA and STA and the rules for STA are that the timer stops when saving is complete and timer resumes as soon as you start loading, this way there is a tiny timeloss for doing tons of segments as the few seconds of saving and loading will add up. This category would allow you to push it to levels of optimization that are not possible or feasible for RTA runs but doesn't punish people who prefer RTA as the STA and RTA would be separate boards and STA would ultimately have timesaves by doing RTA to remove the saving/loading timelosses. There could be a rule of you could go back and redo previous segments however doing so requires you to redo every segment after that again, Ex: You are on segment 5 and decide to go back and redo segment 2. You must then also redo segments 3 and 4 to get back to segment 5. This rule would be more in line with true segmented and not STA.

Some Potential Rules for STA:

-This is the Segmented Time Attack (STA) category. This category is for runners who want the RTA experience but with the added flexibility to take breaks and segment the run into parts.

-For each segment, loading your save file and saving the game should be included in your timing. Therefore, this must be included in your recording for each segment. If missing, your run will be invalidated.

-Each segment should begin on the save file load screen (with the exception of the first segment) and end after saving the game to signify you are done with that segment (with the exception of the final segment). Please prepare and organize your recordings in a way that makes it easy to validate the final time.

This would be up to the mods as I'm only a verifier and I have not run this game in almost 2 years. If I can I would also like to recommend a name change of the category from 99% to 100% because as far as I know the only difference is getting max level on all characters which has nothing attached to it ie no unlock. To me if there is no unlock or incentive to get max level it isn't included in the percentage of completion as many other RPGs do therefor it should be 100%

Edit: I should also point at the game I'm referencing is Skies of Arcadia Legends. Their STA does not allow resetting segments for better RNG and I think I would also lean that way for LoD STA but STA would allow smaller segments which are easier to find time for as compared to the 12+ hours that current rules allow therefor you could grind more often to get that RNG needed.

If this run were to be broken up into more than 2 parts in any rule set, I would also agree that if you redo a segment, all future segments would also need to be redone. 99% has too many things you can get out of order otherwise.

I like the idea of STA where you can redo a section for this, although I am hesitant on the idea of adding more leaderboards as a solution. If STA and RTA for 99%, I would propose combining emulator and console leaderboards. I think it's clear at this point emulator is likely a tiny bit slower than console, and that's more noticeable on this scale. But I think I'd rather STA vs RTA over Emulator vs Console when it comes to 99%. There's no routing difference between emulator and console by design, but there definitely would be RTA vs STA just by the nature of what risks people would want to take. For instance you can definitely save a minute before Virage 2 by skipping talisman which you would never do on RTA, but you might do on segmented.

I have no opinion regarding calling it 99 or 100%. 100% would be clearer to my chatters than 99%. So I think I'd lean toward that. A lot of people ask me what the missing 1% is.

It's not that deep bros. 99% is a meme based on how stupid 100% is to track in games with no in-game counter and that we go to 99 additions. If anything, I'd prefer to rename it 69% or 420% or something.

I'm opposed to adding more categories for stuff no one runs. Since Umi is the only runner of 99% emulator I wouldn't mind changing the rules based on her preference tbh. It doesn't have to be the same as console. And for that matter I don't mind changing the rules for console either but is it really worth it for a category that no one runs and no one probably will run?

Edit: Lasagna and I agreed to just merge the 99% boards and put a tab in for both RTA and segmented. You can run either! Segmented will need a lot of routing though so goodluck.

I'm sorry Umi, this will take away your 1st place but I think it's for the greater good.

Please review the changes and let me know what you guys think. I edited the rules also.

We can change the name of the category too, if you guys really want. 100%, 69%, 420%, ∞%, death frontier% show of hands what you want.

Lol, that's okay! I agree with the changes~ I think this will make this much more palatable to run. The only thing I'd note is that I think we accidentally removed the rule that says how you need to verify you have all the stuff by cycling through your lists and character sheets lingering long enough that mods can verify.

As for names, I like 100% if we're doing numbers, but I could also go for WHAAAALES% or WORMKILLER% or simply "THE GRIND" or anything really ridiculous but fun to say (the all caps is important, I think). I'd avoid infinity% because it's annoying to type on a keyboard. But otherwise I have no strong preference.

Hoarder% is actually also pretty funny

Question: How are we going to handle Runs that are 1 full segment? Are those runs going to be higher as it only took one segment vs broken up into 2 segments? I remember DT mentioned that if a run is 1 full segment that it be weighted higher than those that were done in 2 segments. Just asking cause some of us are crazy to attempt a full segment of this vice 2 parts. Also Hey LoD Fam :)

I did it single segment once and I do not recommend. Also, rewarding people for hurting themselves seems like a bad idea.

I think maybe a 1-part and 2-part should no longer be in the same sub-category since 1-part runs are worth a lot more. It will always be of worse quality than a 2-part run due to fatigue at the end of the run. Since the "segmented" category was added there for some reason we might as well add a 3rd branch with 1-part and 2-part runs. I guess people who really wants to push themselves to do a 1-part run is probably only going to do it once or twice in their life (after hopefully have practiced the 2-part run or something before). It's like the ultimate marathon run.

I don't think anyone will be pushed to ever do a 1-part run ever again if they are not split up. There is almost no prestige to do a 1-part run anymore with how popular the 2-part run is. I don't think we need to have "RTA" as the category as it should probably be implied by default. I don't know if 1-part is enough for a category name. Maybe it should be called "Single-Segment" or "1-part" and "2-part" or "2-part RTA" (something like this). Maybe you can come up with better names. BDD had a completed 1-part run which should always be worth more than a 2-part run, even if the 2-part is much faster its a cool feat on its own.