327327

1) Can I submit hc run for as hc and as sc?
If I`ve got HC run with better time, then SC, can I submit it at both, cuz HC rules are same with SC, and there is no reason to grind SC too, for another "achivment" at speedrun.com?
2)Can I make pause when I`m speedrunning? Some runs are going more, then 8 hours, is it possible to have a break at this runs, whats rules do you have for that, can I pause at 6 hours run, 4 hours, 1 hour?

 
  LaVLaV

1) You should submit HC runs as HC and SC runs as SC. The community decided to go with this strict separation a few years ago so that's what we go with.

2) You can take as many breaks as you want, as long as you keep your timer running during the breaks. Pausing the timer is a no-no.

 
  327327

I`m sorry Lav, but who is that "community", who decided that? I can agree about SC cannot be HC, but there is no logic at all about HC cannot be SC. Speedrun of d2 is dead for today, noone going for the best time of each char. All runners are going for achievment at speedrun.com.
Look at HL speedrun (https://www.speedrun.com/hl1), there is EASY and HARD mode, but they are going at the same category, Diablo 3 - there is 1 category, many others games...
But what do we have here?
No one plays Druid soft, cuz druid HC is easier.
Sin soft are 3 minutes faster, then HC, but Mojlodostb have to play 11 hours at stream for grind soft achievment.
2 last Boksers WRs at normal - is beating slower time of benders WRs.
And this is not a competition, no one want to beat the game as fast as possible, everyone want achievments.
And noone of this list is even not of the part of this "community" who decided how runners have to run this runs.
There is a big different for STREAM (not speedrun) of hell hardcore run, for today this is the most popular category for viewers, but why guys who don`t care about viewers at theirs streams have to run softcore, if he allready have have the best time? Because someone decided for him?

MoJlodosTbMoJlodosTb likes this. 
  Teo-Teo-
(edited: )

In the early stages of this game on this website, we had no seperation between hc and sc runs.
After a while a number of ppl started doing the speedruns on hc - eventually wanting to have their own leaderboards. At that moment the hc runs were remarkably slower. At that time we agreed on the rules "SC has to be SC" and "HC has to be HC".
Yes technically there shouldn't be a limit to that - but in the end this is the result we came up with.

Also... If you do it one way, you have to do it both ways. -> SC being capable of being submitted as HC runs if they are deathless. But here is the problem with that: This would force us Moderators to literally watch every run to its full extend to figure out if it was deathless. And no you can not argue that "Diablo interface" could provide this information - Not everyone is using the Death counter or the tool itself in the first place.

Making this a one way street also doesn't seem fair - therefore this strict seperation.

Also... In the end it is your choice, what you want to achive. Noone sits here and puts a gun to your head to go for all 2 x 2 x 7 x 3 worlrd records.

And finally... Speedrunning is not perfect. There always will be someone that is unhappy with certain rules. You can see that now with this (once again happening) discussion on the strict seperation, on the topic of classic allowed yes / no. Even on the topic of making px the main category as it clearly is faster then the p1 category... There are just always categories that are more popular then others...

MekalbMekalb, Captain-No-BeardCaptain-No-Beard and ZabaZaba like this. 
  327327
(edited: )

1) «Noone sits here and puts a gun to your head to go for all 2 x 2 x 7 x 3 worlrd records». But this is how things are done now. No one cares about the fastest time, everyone plays with guns to their heads, and going only for achievements. Long time ago grind was not that bad, but for today grind SC and HC is disgusting. All main normal WRs have topleft start, 1st arcane, flayers skip, with amazing tower runs (I don`t even talk about the runes). The worst thing is you have to do it twice, and that’s what people do. What do I want, if HC will be equal with SC, speedrunners could run only HC to get both WRs, or destroy this separation.
2) «In the early stages of this game on this website, we had no separation between hc and sc runs. After a while a number of ppl started doing the speedruns on hc - eventually wanting to have their own leaderboards. At that moment the hc runs were remarkably slower. At that time we agreed on the rules "SC has to be SC" and "HC has to be HC». Time has changed. This answer is not logical, it`s just «that’s why, because it used to be before». Please, give me answer with any logic rules why if you have HC normal WR you couldn`t have SC too?
3) «This would force us Moderators to literally watch every run to its full extend to figure out if it was deathless», if this the only problem I guess we should have some more moders. I watched all runes from top5 from the start to the end, you can give me moderation if you not able to do it. Also we can remove verification and start only check for right submits, because anyway no one is watching all runs.
4) «Making this a one way street also doesn't seem fair - therefore this strict seperation». Why it`s unfair, you beat the game with best possible time, and that’s unfair to give you WR? Let`s look what happened at normal d2 speedrun for today:
Amazon – HC faster than SC. Egg (HC wrholder) going to beat SC.
Assassin – HC faster than SC. Mojlodostb (HC wrholder) going to beat SC, Bender tries to back HC.
Barb – Bender have both WR, no one plays barb.
Druid – I have both WR, Bender, Indrek, MrLlama tries to beat HC time, for last 3 months no one even once try to beat SC time. For me it`s not a speedrun, no one even cares about the best time.
Nec – Few months ago Bender got both, but Bokser beat his worst one.
Pal – Few months ago Bender got both, but Bokser beat his worst one.
Sorc – no one plays sorc.

 
  RiznerRizner

I don't see a problem with the separation - if less people run SC then that's ok, it can still be a category because plenty of people do run only that. If you merge the two, with HC being the main category that carries over, you're eventually just merging both categories into one.

I think we can agree that a SC run should never be counted as a HC run. I think we can also agree that the SC category should exist - but in my mind this would kill that category.
It can be less competitive (assuming top runners choose not to run it) and that's ok. It can have room for growth, and potentially we can see better WR times in SC than HC in the future, and all of that is ok. Merging them for the sake of having runners simplify what they want their records to show to me is not worth losing the SC category in the long run.
The argument that you don't want to have to run it again for all the WRs seems a bit unnecessary - if people decide to grind it they can, and if they don't want to they don't have to. You don't see many doing pX runs or Pacifist runs or anything like that, it's just not every runners cup of tea. And softcore can be the same - if you really want to grind the record you can, but you don't have to. If your goal is to get all WRs regardless, that's ok too.

What are your thoughts on just reordering the page, so Hardcore is the main tab (and selected on page load) and Softcore is to the right and requires selecting?

 
  327327
(edited: )

Less people runs SC? 60 runs soft sorc vs 18 HC runs.

The main question is why HC runs couldn`t count like soft run. I`ve got 0 answers, only like "it always was like this, and I like this separation".

I don`t like it, and if you see what happend at normal runs today with top runners mb you will understand why.

" I think we can also agree that the SC category should exist". Why, why it should be exist, there is no differents in time for today, some runs are faster at HC, some at SC.

About pasifics, other fun categories - they not that bad, as p1, the grind level for p1 normal is not the same. Its not even close. And the worst thing it`s not a speedrun anymore.

 
  MekalbMekalb

If I had the option to vote, I think I would let HC runs count as SC too. I think it will empower both categories. HC tends to be the more popular run for viewers, and that's probably why HC tends to be played more and have faster times (my opinion). If HC times are counted in SC as well, overall this will push SC times to be faster, because it is either faster than the HC counterpart, or the same time. This makes SC more competitive, and might bring back more attention to SC, especially in hell runs. Kind of like what 327 is saying, now you are vying for the fastest possible finish (for P1, or category it is) for this class, rather than the gold trophy of that category, which for SC tends to be slower than HC, so it's a less meaningful if you get the SC record with the HC time being faster in that category.

I think we would all agree that if SC was given the same amount of attention as HC, the SC times would probably be faster than the HC, on average. So if we implemented this rule, it will now give the speedrunner more interesting decision-making: A) run HC and try and improve your times in both categories (or WR both categories) in one run, or 😎 run SC and probably have a better chance of getting your personal (or WR) fastest time completed for that class. From a viewership standpoint, this would probably make SC runs more exciting, because now we all agree that SC times are always the fastest possible times, which would bring back meaning to having a SC record. This also makes HC more valuable because now it holds more weight to it, because having a HC time that is both ranked 1 in HC and SC, makes you absolute king (or queen) of the category.

Lastly, I do not think this will negatively impact any big streamer's viewership (as full time or part time streamers). I wouldn't want to implement something that could damper someone's livelihood. I think this will actually making both SC and HC runs more interesting, based on what I said above, but have no negative impacts on those who typically only do HC or SC runs. However, I am definitely open for others opinions on that.

 
  Teo-Teo-
(edited: )

First of all - Using this website without a verification process wont happen. The amount of trolling people or ppl that dont pay attention to how they submit their runs is too big. And yes, I know I made some mistakes while putting back the 1400+ runs last week, but over all the filtering process needs to be there.

Lets analyze more, why people play certain categories over others:
a ) HC is more interesting for viewers -> correct for the most part. Some ppl however enjoy seeing completed runs over the thrill of "will he die on a good pace?"
b ) There are actually a lot of Diablo 2 players that don't feel comfortable to play HC.
c ) People choose the category they think they can compete in. This is why sorc is not run at all in hell runs and very little in normal runs. In fact, having more categories to choose from gives more ppl the opportunity to choose the category they think they have a chance to achieve something.
d ) Personally I think HC in general is pointless for a speedrun. Why would you choose HC over SC if you want to achieve the fastest time. Reallistically you can achieve the same time in both. SC even having a tiny advantage of "death strats" in the throne room. Additionally you have a much higher chance of loosing a good pace due to a death on HC (run being over and all that stuff) compared to SC in which you have the ability to abuse deaths and / or somewhat recover from them if they are in not too bad places. (Examples being: You just picked up sth in a2/3 for progress and died right after -> thats not a time loss; you dying to beetle burst strats -> tiny time loss but recoverable)
e ) Not everyone is in the "Top 1%" of speedrunners -> Most people compete with themselves more then with any other person. Some try to get into that "Top 1%" category -> But they initially don't compete with those.

And lastly: This website is not capable of easily achieving what you ask. There is only 2 ways:
a ) Having a strict seperation or
b ) Having no seperation

"Forcing" everyone to play HC in order to beat both WRs at the same time is simply not an option.

Btw. Some ppl don't run Druid because it's simply no challenge to play this char in the first place in normal...

91RelaX91RelaX likes this. 
  327327
(edited: )

Again my question is can I submit HC run as SC, and if I can`t tell me why not.
a ) Ok
b ) SC still avaible if you can submit HC as SC
c ) They still can play SC
d ) There is no "advatage" of "death strats" in the real life. If HC harder than SC why you cannot submit it as SC
e ) Speedrunning is the act of playing a video game with the intent of completing it as fast as possible (https://www.speedrun.com/about) so mb we should focus at the top 1% runners, because our goal to complete game as fast as possible?

It`s not problem at no one want play druid normal, the real problem, no one want to beat the fastest time, everyone going to beat the slowest time of this 2 categories, it`s not a speedrun.

 
  Teo-Teo-

e) that still is the goal - at the same time we give everyone that is new to the game an achievable goal

 
  Bender_Bender_

I dont really see a reason to change it tbh.

Will people go and try to beat the easier time first? Yes. But easier isnt necessary slower. Last time i grinded sorc for example i did it on SC, simply because dying on a good pace to random beetlebolts is really tilting.
And beating the easier first doesnt mean they will not attempt the other one.

But does it really matter?

In the end we all run to have fun, if you enjoy the char/category its a good thing being able to run it twice. If you dont want to run it twice, just care about getting the fastest time (or like Ryu, just care about HC, whatever you prefer).
Egg likes amazon, so he runs sc zon after crushing HC, you (327) like druid, so you go for all druidtimes, Mojo likes Sin, same for him and indrek on sorc. I think no-one of you keep running these because "you have to", but because "you enjoy to"

And about deathstrats: There is a lot more you could do with them but noone does yet really. Different topic tho

hellojoehellojoe, LaVLaV and ZabaZaba like this. 
  Daz86Daz86

i can see an argument for both. having a single Category like “Players 1 Normal Druid” then every druid run submitted on that one list but put (Hardcore) next to name or time for HC runs.

but as a mediocre runner i like that SC is its own category honestly. and i run to improve my own times like Teo said. maybe be in the top 10% of a category one day....

 
  327327
(edited: )

Nah, I got the massage, I thougt we are spedrunning , but the true is we are "having fun" here.

Still have no answer why pressing at "hardcore" button makes run different with softcore, and why I cannot submit my HC run as SC. It should works at logic and rules, not at yours want or don`t want.

 
  sroy2sroy2
(edited: )

As someone with no WRs or stake in the discussion, my thoughts:

- the original reason to separate makes sense (community consensus); as someone who wasn't there at the time I find it hypocritical to second guess past decisions
- community consensus can change, if folks now want them to be merged - it could go up for a vote; I personally would limit the vote to people who have actually submitted runs, not everyone who watches (ie. myself)

IMO - the easiest way to handle this is to make a JOINT Any% Deathless hybrid board that you could submit to, in addition to the SC/HC board.

Assuming the consensus was to allow HC runs to filter into some new Any% Deathless hybrid
- moderators now have a 3rd board to manage; I would offer folks should have to submit to both boards they are eligible for - don't place the burden of categorizing on the mod team.
- there really shouldn't be any issues with increased workload for moderators, it's pretty easy to tell if HC runs finish

Assuming the consensus was to allow SC runs to filter into some new Any% Deathless hybrid
- same first point
- THERE IS a large verification burden (i.e. watch the whole playthrough for deaths) that I expect to impact the verification speed... all the moderators are volunteers and have limited time they can devote to critically analyzing runs that can and have gone 52+ hours (https://www.speedrun.com/d2lod/run/z014099y)

The real question to me is: Do we see any value in having a joint Any% Deathless board on top of SC and HC boards?

 
  blazer-flamewingblazer-flamewing
(edited: )

If I were to make a categorical suggestion, I would suggest merging runs together, no SC/HC categories, but have a column for distinguishing HC/SC (since that is a thing people in the community care about, for hype reasons probably). Death strats are minimal time save in my opinion, and I don't really think having different categories for the sake of a very small time save makes sense. Both SC/HC being merged can reduce the number of categories to run records for by half, and people can run their preference as they wish while being compared to both "categories". I've seen some runners starting to put SC / HC times on their timers to compare both anyways. And it'll be fun to see how mixed together SC/HC becomes when they are put on the same board, I think

Daz86Daz86, 91RelaX91RelaX and sroy2sroy2 like this. 
  hellojoehellojoe

"Still have no answer why pressing at "hardcore" button makes run different with softcore, and why I cannot submit my HC run as SC. It should works at logic and rules, not at yours want or don`t want."

If you go there then logic demands that you can submit a SC run as HC if you didn't die.

 
  BokserKabatyBokserKabaty
(edited: )

"If you go there then logic demands that you can submit a SC run as HC if you didn't die." - Well not quite Joe, if you die on hc run it's already over, while on sc you still can get sc record. That basically forces Deathless/SC categories only , because nobody would play hc in that case, that category is spirit of d2 and only viable mode for a lot of people.

Personally I don't see reason for changing anything. More categories = more Pbs/wrs/goals to beat = more fun = enjoyable competition.

I'm not big fan of promoting hc runs too much, in hell runs it might make some sense since death rate is quite high, but for normal runs it's terrible change (very low death rate, low challenge factor around surviving, very high rng dependency). It promotes grinding for rng much more than reliability and repetitiveness. Don't know what is waste of time for you 327 but for me it's losing weeks of rolling for even having tiny chance competing against kinda grinded out categories, sc druid is great example here - nobody plays it. And no - I'm not depreciating your feat and druid skills I'm not that kind of person. Just trying to say d2 isn't very good for that approach (only one fastest time matters), just too many random factors comparing to other titles.

 
  Teo-Teo-

the end of the matter is - untill there is a reasonable way to merge categories there wont be any change in the strict seperation line.
Deathless% is also not the spirit of speedrunning - therefore a category for that is pointless.

 
  327327

Run for the slower time to get achivment - is not a spirit of speedrunning.

Thats what we got today at normal runs, 15 hours of grind - 0 time act 4, and this guy allready have WR. And no one puts a gun to your head, thats just how d2 speedrun works for now - you got the best time - you should do it again for slower time.

You know, there is a bioshock infinite speedrun (https://www.speedrun.com/bsi#Any_HRH_Mod) and they have a mod, wich give you special item without grind, because runners don`t wanna grind 1 item. And what do we have?

I can go against rules, but if you guys real have no problem with it, and you think speedrunning it is when you have an achivment to beat p8 HC barb, because p8 HC barb is slower, thas p8 SC barb there is nothing I can do. I just want to make less grind, for me separation of HC and SC forse you to girnd even more.

 
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