Leaderboards and Mods
3 years ago
California, USA

Hi all.

I have decided to put this into its own thread rather than continuing threads started several years ago. I think it is time to re-open discussions about the categorisation of the leader boards for this game in the wake of the recent Door Skip mod and the rise of Emulator use. I appreciate that this has been a touchy subject in the past, and that there were mixed opinions on whether a re-shuffle was required. Obviously, the nuances of this game and it's many versions present problems, but I feel that we could reach a sensible solution - perhaps a good idea would be to bring together a number of suggestions (inc. 'keep things the same') and put it to a vote.

The thing is that is now evident that the fastest way to run this game is PS3 Emulator, but discussions in Discord have made it clear that a lot of interested runners simply do not have the setup to make this work for them. A healthy solution is to make the GC emulator a more attractive prospect; currently, it is not due to it's inherent time loss compared to the PS3 version. Of course, this also applies to the various differences in console versions. The consensus on that front is that it may be worth grouping together certain versions (i.e. PS2 and GC) but this can be discussed.

A community member has very kindly mocked up a test page to give people an idea of what a change might look like: https://www.speedrun.com/cvx_test#Any Again, what exactly falls under 'HD console' or 'SD console' would be discussed.

With all that said I think it is worth addressing some of the potential backlash, at least based on what has come before now. 'Filtering' is not a solution that appeals to the majority of people who look to a board and hope to compete; I appreciate it is there for a reason, but the fact is that this has turned people away from playing this game. Also, people may have a problem with alleged free WR hunters. While I feel like this isn't a genuine issue, if anyone feels strongly against this then I suggest that they either get over it or submit times to those boards themselves.

This is not about levelling playing fields, WRs, or any of that. I just want to see this game that we all love become more active because, frankly, it's been a graveyard for the past 3/4 years. I would also point out that whatever your feelings are towards gaming/speedrunning, forums like this should be about community, sharing ideas, making friendships. We should look to bring more people in by being open to new suggestions and ideas.

My second issue to raise is the lack of mod activity. Carcinogen is no longer a mod here I notice, and itsmiahere, TheMixedHerb, and sshplur have not been online for 8 months, 3, and 4 years respectively. I don't think the introduction of a couple new mods is a bad idea - I will offer my services if that's appropriate, and encourage anyone else interested to please make it known. I should point out that this is not a coup, currently active mods are doing a great job.

Anyway that's all I have to say for now. Let's try to keep this civil; we are all adults here.

Mogul

PS. I have discussed some of the ideas here at length with people in private and in discord channels; however, I do not speak for anyone but myself. I encourage people to have their own say here if possible. Thanks

Sjotyme, LightTheOldSnake and 8 others like this
Philippines

Yup... The only way i see this working out is additional manpower in the moderating team cause more categories means extra verification work, and only 1 or maybe 2 or more have been actively verifying runs. But what do i know i havent been here that long, all i know is i love this game, whatever is needed to bring more runners , im for it.

AstralMagnet likes this
United Kingdom

I think the separation of HD hardware, SD hardware and emulators into separate boards would be a great change for the future of this game. Right now having everything lumped together is turning away potential runners who have no access to a PS3 or a high end PC that's capable of running the PS3 Emulator. Filters definitely do not have the same effect. I think the mock-up in the original post would be a good place to start with some tweaks.

I also think Mogul would make a great addition to the mod team as he clearly cares about the game and the future of CVX speedrunning.

MaleficMedic, liquidnightmare and 3 others like this
United States

Just wanted to chime in with the test board in the original post here is temporary (has to be deleted within 2 weeks or else it becomes permanent), so here's a screenshot of its current look as of (11 March 2021, 2:35pm EST). https://imgur.com/a/s9lpfkF I've added Mogul to that board so you guys can make changes to that to see what works for you guys.

Mogul likes this
England

I am really new so I have not a lot to say. But I agree that sep boards will be a great improvement. From my own experience getting the PS3 emulator to work can be awfully hard work. I am sure this is a small thing that might also put people off like you say.

I think that new test board looks quite clean and sensible too!

Sjotyme likes this
United Kingdom

100% agree to the above and Mogul would make a great moderator for this board if he would want to take it if offered. A lot of great games are not being run and that’s down to the lack of categories on the board. To bring more runners to this game it has to be expanded

Sjotyme likes this
Chad

I agree completely, the way boards are organized at the moment just makes no sense, sadly.

RapixOnGaming likes this
Rhône-Alpes, France

Nothing to add, agree with what was said, the test boards seems pretty clear

Valhalla

I hope this time it works out. Leaderboard needs changing.

Illinois, USA

Although I do understand that one of the biggest reasons for a board to not have too many categories is to prevent the competition from spreading thin, I still feel that it will breathe life into the speedrun.

I do have a time on the board, but don't consider myself an active runner of this game. With that said, my opinion probably doesn't have as much weight, but when I first took a look at the board, I was surprised that console and emulator were grouped together.

I've seen this same sort of set up with silent hill boards as well and have always thought that the filtering system, although it exists and serves a purpose, it doesn't create much incentive to run a specific setup as people tend to only look at the boards face value.

I have known Mogul for some time and have developed a friendship with him. All biases aside, I think he would be a good fit as a moderator of this board due to his intellect and passion to getting things done right, thorough and to the point. Plus he has an intense passion for CVX and genuinely want this game to grow.

California, USA

there is one other version that needs some real testing...the backwords compatitble xbox 360 version on the series X...in theory this could be about the same as the ps3 emulator. At the moment this is the most accessable "competitive" version next to the PS3 emulator (which will get more accessable as time goes on)

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Mogul likes this
California, USA

Interesting. I’m sure someone in discord said they have that version, although I don’t think they run the game yet so not sure much reliable testing would be incoming anytime soon.

As for PS3 emu becoming more a accessible, you’re probably right, but for now the majority of people I have spoken to are struggling to run it and certainly cannot run it and stream simultaneously. I feel like we could end up in a position where ‘get a better setup if you want to be competitive’ becomes the new ‘make a Japanese PSN account’ - most saw the latter as unreasonable, the former is frankly ridiculous imo.

We also need to accept that change is a thing; how long ago was it when people here were adamant that emulator runs were cheap and not genuine records or whatever it was? Now the game is being pushed to new limits on an emu.

England

I think, for the boards to be as inclusive as possible really champions what a great deal of the speedrun community represents. To make that happen change needs to be welcomed really.

Ireland

Very good point, Mogul and this can be applied to so many games as well. In my opinion, the grinding should be kept strictly for the games/runs and not so much when it comes to just getting the fastest setup.

Don't get me wrong, there is enjoyment in being able to achieve a competitive setup, along with the inevitable changes from new strats/technology etc, but I think it's also important to recognise where the line is before achieving that setup becomes too laboursome.

RapixOnGaming likes this
Ireland

Hello everyone.

I just wanted to give my own view on some of the points made on this post

The thing is that is now evident that the fastest way to run this game is PS3 Emulator, but discussions in Discord have made it clear that a lot of interested runners simply do not have the setup to make this work for them - Mogul

The most run category at the moment is Doosrkip Glitched on Emulator

This is not about levelling playing fields, WRs, or any of that. I just want to see this game that we all love become more active because, frankly, it's been a graveyard for the past 3/4 years. - Mogul

The game has never been more active with the addition of the PS3 emulator and doorskip thanks to Failmore and Kapdap

My second issue to raise is the lack of mod activity. Carcinogen is no longer a mod here I notice, and itsmiahere, TheMixedHerb, and sshplur have not been online for 8 months, 3, and 4 years respectively. Mogul

I can speak to an admin and get those 3 mods removed that are in active. As for needing more mods, runs are verified in a timely manner and there is no need for any extra.

Yup... The only way I see this working out is additional manpower in the moderating team cause more categories means extra verification work, and only 1 or maybe 2 or more have been actively verifying runs. ISH

It really doesn’t take that long to verify a run. You just have to make sure the the vod is cut correctly, make sure it is in the right category and make sure the final time submitted is correct. As much as some people say they need to sit and watch through an entire run and scrutinize it. You really don’t. Myself and Nurmat is more than enough

I think the separation of HD hardware, SD hardware and emulators into separate boards would be a great change for the future of this game. Right now having everything lumped together is turning away potential runners who have no access to a PS3 or a high end PC that's capable of running the PS3 Emulator. Hamo

When I first started speedrunning. I had a Dual Core laptop. I couldn’t even run the Gamecube emulator version properly. I didn’t complain. I just ran with what I had. Dreamcast emulator.

I think, for the boards to be as inclusive as possible really champions what a great deal of the speedrun community represents. AstralMagnet

Anyone can run any version of the game however fast or slow the version is, whatever the skill level of the runner and whatever the time of the run is. There is nothing stopping anyone from doing that

The game has not been more alive due to the addition of PS3 emulator and Doorskip. Separating versions won't increase or decrease the amount of runners of the game. It will just add clutter.

We've had this discussion before not long ago where people wanted to run GameCube emulator with budget doorskip where they wanted to manually speed up the emulator to "Skip" the doors. They have now ran on a PS3 after saying it was not accessible.

MaterialBurst and Hoobie like this
United Kingdom

"The game has not been more alive due to the addition of PS3 emulator and Doorskip. Separating versions won't increase or decrease the amount of runners of the game. It will just add clutter."

I'd definitely start running this game if there was a separate category for Gamecube Emulator but currently I don't have a system capable of running the PS3 version. I imagine there are others in a similar situation, I don't see how you can confidently make the claim that it wouldn't bring in more runners. I'd happily take "clutter" over a leaderboard that currently has Dreamcast competing against Playstation 3 Emulator.

England

"I'd definitely start running this game if there was a separate category for Gamecube Emulator" you say this yet haven't done any runs before, haven't even found out if you really enjoy running the game at all yet your confident if there was one change on the site, suddenly you would gain the motivation to run a brand new game?

United Kingdom

Yes Hoobie. I enjoy the game and I like the speedrun, but it would take a change in the leaderboards to make me run the game seriously and submit a run to the board.

Ireland

I just don't see why you can't see why you can't just do your runs. When I only had access to a Dreamcast Emulator I just ran that version and slapped on the boards without caring what place it was. But I cared enough about the place to save up and invest in a PS3 and use an elgato I had bought many years previous. There is nothing stopping you from running the version you want to run