Alright let's get a round two on this topic. It has been nine months since people voted on (not) having a filter for runs using classic shortcuts/no TA-skip.

Just to recap the vote, there were 19 votes casted, 11 for no and 8 for yes (3 for just filtering no TA-skip). Some active runners were too indecisive to vote and some who haven't played NMG category felt they absolutely need to have a say on the topic. Nothing wrong with that. Just shows that it's really divisive topic that sparks heated discussion.

Now that some time has passed people have had more chances to play the game with or without TA-skip and rethink a bit.

My thoughts on the reasons for a filter:

We are all looking for meaningful ways to compete in CTR. That's why we submit runs to leaderboards.

TA-skip is quite different from any other skip because of its huge risk, big potential time save of insane 70 seconds and finally no consistent setup. It all comes down to resetting enough to finally get past the level and surviving rest of the game. Sometimes you just get lucky and get the skip with no effort, sometimes you need to dedicate your time for grinding thousands of attempts to get decent results. Respect to those who are willing to do that and they do deserve their top placement due to dedication.

Some of us are not willing to throw thousands of runs against a wall to compete with the best players. We still want meaningful ways to compete in the game. And SRcom is perfectly capable of providing tools for it. Creating a filter to see what skips/play style were used in the run would be useful to all players since faster time does not always mean better gameplay. In my case I would definitely want to know what skips were used if I would compare two runs with a time of 50:55 for example. With classic style/skips that would be top tier. With modern style the run potentially got timesave of 70 seconds due to one skip and lacking on all the other levels. Only our standards have shifted but you cannot see what is going on on the leaderboard without digging deep. If all of us truly were interested in lowest time possible we would be grinding frames off of the warp glitch.

In the end it seems like half of the people taking part in the discussion want to compete in the game in a way that is enjoyable and not an insane grind fest. With the filter you could even submit and browse runs with both styles without having to search the mass of obsoleted runs.

So why not simply make use of srcom features and provide players more meaningful ways to compete in the main category. Of course NMG with everything goes would be the standard. No doubt.

Heck if the work for mods feels too big I can do it all myself. I have already gone through half of the runs since June 2020 anyway.

Maybe that's enough. Let's see if your opinions have changed on the matter.

I absolutely agree with the idea of adding a filter as it is useful and fairly convenient to add on this website. I like the naming Classic/Modern filters.

The goal of speedrun always revolve around optimizing the run as much as possible which can be achieved in various ways. Having a "Modern" filter will not negate any run nor change the current leaderboard. It will mostly benefit curious speedrunners who want to follow up with and improve based on the most optimized runs without major skips (e.g. TA) and then slowly transition to modern skips when they feel comfortable. It can also serve as a way of comparison between similar runs (both old and new), add a sense of competition and be stepping stone for future runs with newer skips.

I agree with this idea of adding a filter about (Withful TA skip/Withless TA skip) but I think that also is necessary to implement other filter with tiziano tech.

Just refreshing what "classic" would be defined as:

Originally posted by TheRedhotbrI propose an alternative solution, which is a "classic" filter. Before TA skip, people competed for over a decade using pretty much a static strategy. The latest develops in the category before TA skip were the introduction of Speed characters, and Polar Pass "boomerang" skip. There's a historical significance for a category that doesn't allow any modern technique such as TA skip, Tiziano, or any other skip that may become RTA viable one day.

i am a returning runner, and I am in full support of this filter as well. the idea of classic/modern splits enable a runner to optimize their run in the way they deem most enjoyable, while not feeling like they're losing out on massive chunks of time simply for their choice in skips. truthfully, it seems like the most natural choice to me.

I am in support of a classic vs. modern filter. It should not devolve into a category split.

So here is my take, feel free to disagree with me, this is not some dictatorship where I make all the rules;

I feel like we should have a vote if there is still a want for this change, if the vote is a DRAMATIC win for a filter (like 85/15 or something) then it should be in place immediately. If its 60/40 for a filter, i feel like it should again, be put in place but we should review the success of it after a month. For a change to happen I would personally like to see a big victory, so that we don't upset a shit ton of people (like last time lol)

Here is my actual opinion regarding the topic, I don't think we should have a filter, as I do believe that the desired effect of this filter (bringing people back to the game from the "golden generation" (even though that golden generation was nowhere even close to the success the game has seen in the last 3 years)) will simply not happen.

As well as this, you have the notion that from a more selfish standpoint, it helps to invalidate the work of me and others in actually optimising the run, the game will simply no longer be developed at a 48 level, and people will instead focus on an arbitrary run, that is way easier than the game at top level, leading to the stagnation of finding new skips and thus the game.

Best case scenario if this is implemented is it brings back tons of old runners and everyone has a ball.

Worst case scenario, and what I think will happen. People will come back for a week, quit again, and all we have done is invalidate peoples hard work optimising the game, as well as directing everyones attention AWAY from developing the game, leading ultimately to its death. (not to mention making the board look more complicated than it needs to for newer runners.)

oh and something i forgot to say, limiting someone to only playing as coco and ngin is not something i support in any way at all and is a simply terrible idea imo as it takes away from the whole argument for the filter which is "playing the game how you want"

no

I've been conflicted on whether to make a post on here as I, unlike those posted before me, have no intention on running NMG again with or without a filter. I do think it's important to get some perspective on the nature of TA which may not be widely understood and why, in my view, TA doesn't add value to the speedrun.

The matter comes down to the two layers of randomness which the skip involves.

First is item RNG which is obvious. Chances for a nitro is 40% per item box, so to get a nitro in two boxes for the second attempt is 64% (if my maths holds up). Not awful odds but for a skip that's all or nothing, a run can quickly fall apart if you're required to cycle 4 or 5 boxes (or more as has happened to some runners).

Second is frame length. Following a test carried out with the help of RedHot, it was discovered that the physical length of a frame affects the chances of success. This is completely uncontrollable as we can't even see frame lengths, let alone predict them. This means that, with the right setup and item RNG, the skip will fail because you got the wrong sequence of frames.

This level of uncontrollability is simply why TA is just a bad skip. The filter will encourage people to play without and hopefully find enjoyment in this game again, as I know there are those who just don't want to play knowing they "have" to go for this to be competitive. There's a line to say "well, just don't do the skip and play how you want", but experience shows that's not happening because people yearn for something tangible, which a filter provides.

I don't understand the concept of the "golden generation". In terms of the community that's long gone since 2014-17 or so when the speedrun scene was very active and there were frequent races in the community. The past 3 years have been very stale as there's just a low turnover of players. This is apparent in both TTs and Speedruns and neither a filter or no filter will make any difference to that. We're focusing on the enjoyment of current players who feel they're losing motivation to play knowing they either submit a worse time, or attempt a run they have lost interest in.

I feel the WR won't be invalidated as by default the filters show everything, and WR remains unchanged. But if there's a concern people won't play with TA then surely that's supporting the idea that runners just don't want to do it? And if they don't want to do TA then surely a filter would encourage this, which all things considered is not a bad thing. CTR can be optimised with "Classic" techs, such as pushing the boundaries of sub 50 without TA or Pap NMZ. If anything, TA is halting the progress of IL techs because the mindset is shifting to one where people will continue any standard of run in the hopes they can get a look at Hub 4. The WR is a prime example where the fundamental driving has barely changed since TA has been implemented.

Thanks for acknowledging this discussion. I would appreciate if we are able to vote on this soon.

But I have to say few things to avoid confusion.

- No one wants to limit someone to play as coco/ngin. No one said that as far as I understood and thats not the point.
- Goal is NOT to bring back people from "golden generation" it's all meaningless speculation who would play the game and who would not. To me at least.
- No one wants to invalidate anyones work and it's hard to see how adding a new comparison method for runs would do it. I hope all those who put their efforts to run the game with all skips stand proudly behind their own runs even if some others would like to compete in some other way.

I'll repeat. If we would care only about fastest possible time we would be playing with warp glitch or using PSP for Any% NMG. It's fastest platform for the category after all.

I don't think everyone wants to push the game at 48 level with or without the filter anyways. The use of filter is to compare runs, and it will be hidden by default.
We do have engine filters and I think they are useful since you can compare those runs.

Hello! Most of you will likely not know who I am, but I am the owner of crashteamranking. That doesn't really mean much of anything -- I'm certainly not important -- but I mention it to perhaps lend a small touch of credibility to my words as someone on "the outside" with experience in providing a competitive space.

One thing I have learned in my time operating in the background is that a vote for new filters or categories creates an "us versus them" mentality in a community that should ultimately be striving for a similar goal -- going fast. However, one key driving factor of progress and competition is, unsurprisingly, players having fun or deriving enjoyment while doing so. Many people are vocal about one fact: TA skip is not enjoyable. In fact, many players are omitting the skip before the filter even exists.

The solution is simple: Let the players organically decide.

A game lives and dies by its players. If the majority ignore the filter, then one could claim it was a failed experiment. On the other hand, if a decent portion of players opt to use it, it naturally becomes a valid style of play. It does not "invalidate" work of those who choose to play without -- it instead provides a new arena of competition that players can enjoy. Rather than view a choice as healthy, some instead choose to sulk and claim that the way some wish to enjoy their time isn't "the right way" to do so. I've seen what can quite literally be described as propaganda being used by people to that effect. I personally cannot abide by such actions.

I don't even believe this debate should exist. It's not a debate to be had, or a vote to be held, but rather an experiment to be run. The results will naturally reveal themselves.

For a real-world example of my point: With CTRanking, we added the STP (Super Turbo Pad) category. This category was not something that every player saw as fun or necessary, but people were already playing it. There was a group that enjoyed it. Eventually, rather than leaving it up to a vote or endless debate -- we added it. Sure enough, those interested played. There've been hundreds of submissions across 123 unique players at the time of this post. 5 players even have full/near full time pages! The players themselves validated it as a legitimate category of play because they enjoyed it, not because it was voted in. Rulesets should cater to the players. It doesn't matter how many people don't like it, but rather how many people do.

Just put it in. There's no way it could negatively affect running.

You all have discussed such a small feature so much, seriously no vote needed, just do it. We'll see the results in a month or two.

As for classic modes or some such, discuss it after if TA-filter improves anything, then at least you got data to use.

I don't really care as I probably won't run the game any more than I do right now whether or not we get a filter, but since it seems to be what the majority of the community wants then so be it, let's make the filter a thing